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gabe rock

Patriot Act *breaking news*

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i totally agree with you there kabar. if there is one good thing happeneing right now, it is one of the largest anti war movements in the history of the US...

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Be careful of what you ask for

 

If the current anti-war movement gains enough steam to prevent the U.S. from waging war on Iraq, through political means, and then Saddam does something like nerve-gas the shit out of Kuwait, boy won't you be sorry. I'm not convinced that war with Iraq is the best thing, but I'm also not convinced that Saddam doesn't need a 9mm between the headlights, either. I don't think the Iraqi people will resist. If we smoke Saddam and all the top generals, the Iraqi people would probably welcome us as liberators.

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I agree Kabar.

But at the same time the people calling for war are undoubtedly questionable.

I advocate the removal of Saddam, however I do not advocate uneccesarry civilian casualties.

You bring a good point, if that crazy bastard hits Kuwait, shit would go down...but it is the entire handling of the region by our goverment that is not sound.

I still am of the belief that resolution of the Palestinien Israeli conflict would greatly ease tensions in the region as well as destroy the clout of any reprisals from neighboring countrys.

Fuck it. The father of our president was vp to the man in charge of the administration that armed him. We were short sighted then, so perhaps longterm we shouldnt make the mistake again.

We had our rep. at the UN going on and on about violations Iraq has made to UN mandates, but at the same time Israel is in violation as well.

I dont really care either way.

Why didnt we asasinate him in the 80s instead of arming him?

And why is the Israeli Palestine conflict not resolved? Why are our troops still being attacked in Afghanistan? And what the fuck is up with North Korea?

What I was thinking about today was how the bush cheney admin. went in with an almost 6 trillion surplus bugdet wise and now were almost 6 trillion in debt. Trillion is a big number. Where the fuck did the money go? And besides that , where were we when the Iraqi people rose up against saddam after desert storm?

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All Very Good Questions

 

And if I had the answers to many of them, I'd probably be a foreign policy genius instead of a nurse. I doubt that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is going to be resolved anytime soon. It has been going on all my life, and no doubt it will still be going on after I'm gone. The Palestinians were sort of used as pawns by the Arab nations around Israel. During the 1948 war, when the British pulled out of what was called the Palestine Mandate (it was like a British protectorate), there was an immediate civil war between the Jews and the other residents of the Mandate. After a brief war, thousands of Moslem Arabs (and a lot of Christian Arabs too) left Palestine, refusing to be governed under a Jewish government. They went to refugee camps in nearby Arab countries. They should have been absorbed into the population of those countries, but instead, they were set up in permenant refugee camps, and some lived there for thirty or forty years. Lebanon took in hundreds of thousands. When the PLO was formed, it began making plans for terrorism, but it also did a lot of humanitarian things too, setting up clinics, hospitals, schools, etc. The Israelis have fought five or six wars against the Arab states. The Arabs attack Israel repeatedly, and Israel always wins. So far. They have made various attempts over the years to make peace, but never successfully.

The PLO attempted to seize control of Lebanon back in the 1970's, and the Lebanese population split into rival factions. In Beirut, especially, the city was divided into what amounts to rival mafia clans, each with it's own religion, political party and business interests. The Lebanese Christians were outnumbered, and getting pounded hard, so they made coalition with the Israelis, who then armed and equipped them with armored personnel carriers and artillery and heavy mortars, even a few small armored cars, sort of like a tank with wheels. It was the Lebanese Christian militias that massacred the Palestinians in the Shatilla (sp?) refugee camp. The Israelis were blamed, saying that they should have stopped it, but frankly, these hatreds go a lot deeper than that. It wasn't a contract killing, it was hate-filled payback for years of Palestinian intrigue in Lebanon. Eventually the U.N. brokered a departure of the PLO from Beirut on ships, and they left, with U.S. Marines providing a very uneasy "security buffer" between the warring factions. In 1979, Lebanon looked like Berlin after WWII. Every building was flattened, just about. It has recovered a lot in the 20 years since. At one time, before all this shit started, it was called "the Switzerland of the Middle East." It looked like Miami Beach, back in the day. Today, Syria controls most of Lebanon, I think, or at least, they used to do so. For a while, Israel occupied South Lebanon (the mostly Christian area) and used it as a buffer zone to keep the terrorist groups from attacking Israel from there. They moved out a few years ago and gave it back over to the Lebanese.

To tell you the truth, it would be a full-time 24/7 job trying to keep track of all the plots and counter-plots, intifadas, uprisings, terrorist attacks---who has time for this shit? It's not as simple as some people would lead you to believe. Don't fall for the "The Israelis are evil monsters" shit. There is plenty of blame to go around. The neo-Nazis in Germany love the Palestinians because both sides hate Jews. It's a fucked-up, hate-filled mess and I am very grateful I don't live there.

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Ok, due to today's events I've been checking out american politics... had a look at the Patriot Act.

My god, talk about a licence to fuck people over

 

The bit that caught my eye though was pretty near the top: provision to employ translators

 

To me, it just says it all; america takes no notice of the rest of the world, unless something happens on its home ground (ie. 9/11), then america's polititians run around like chickens with their heads cut off and its war... 'oops I guess we're gonna have to know what these people are saying before we fuck them up.."

 

No beef with you guys, it's just that I've got no idea what the people in power over there think they're doing (or here for that matter, but that's a different rant)

 

You'd think that nobody had ever had an act of terrorism against them...israel/palestine, Ireland, Spain, Japan, et al all seem to be able to manage without using it as an excuse to go and level a country...

 

Yes, I know it's old news, but I kinda got fired up today for some reason.

 

Peace

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Yeah in Feiren Height 9/11 Micheal Moore talks about this act. Apparently most of congress hadn't read it because it got published in the middle of the night. Oh what a great country.

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Guest willy.wonka

im suprised that nobody is really talking about this one... basically, they can take you and murder you and not tell you why they are doing it.

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Guest KING BLING
Originally posted by willy.wonka@Dec 9 2004, 03:21 PM

im suprised that nobody is really talking about this one... basically, they can take you and murder you and not tell you why they are doing it.

 

Is this sarcasm? Could you explain?

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i am confused as fuck. was some pittsburgh flavor arguing with himself on the first page? i didnt really get passed his argument.. sometimes he would direct to kabar.. but..

 

yeah....

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..Remember Rubie Ridge ...

 

It still amazing me on how blind the citizens are towards the US goverment. I'm waiting on the day the Goverment installs a form of Marshall law for "our" security....

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Thought this was kind of interesting... in a shitty way. Didn't want to make a whole new thread about it.

 

source

 

Patriot Act deal could curb some FBI powers

 

Pre-dawn agreement may also make provisions of expiring law permanent

 

Updated: 2:08 p.m. ET Nov. 16, 2005

WASHINGTON - House and Senate negotiators struck a tentative deal on the expiring Patriot Act that would curb FBI subpoena power and require the Justice Department to more fully report its secret requests for information about ordinary people, according to officials involved in the talks.

 

The agreement, which would make most provisions of the existing law permanent, was reached just before dawn Wednesday.

 

But by mid-morning GOP leaders had already made plans for a House vote on Thursday and a Senate vote by the end of the week.

 

That would put the centerpiece of President Bush's war on terror on his desk before Thanksgiving, more than month before a dozen provisions were set to expire.

 

Officials negotiating the deal described it on condition of anonymity because the draft is not official and has not been signed by any of the 34 conferees.

 

Any deal would mark Congress' first revision of the law passed a few weeks after the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

 

In doing so, lawmakers said they tried to find the nation's comfort level with expanded law enforcement power in the post-9/11 era — a task that carries extra political risks for all 435 members of the House and a third of the Senate facing midterm elections next year.

 

Sensitive time

For Bush, too, such a renewal would come at a sensitive time.

 

With his approval ratings slipping in his second term, the president could bolster a tough-on-terrorism image.

 

The tentative deal would make permanent all but a handful of the expiring provisions, the sources said.

 

Others would expire in seven years if not renewed by Congress.

 

They include rules on wiretapping, obtaining business records under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and new standards for monitoring "lone wolf" terrorists who may be operating independent of a foreign agent or power.

 

The draft also would impose a new requirement that the Justice Department report to Congress annually on its use of national security letters, secret requests for the phone, business and Internet records of ordinary people.

 

The aggregate number of letters issued per year, reported to be about 30,000, is classified.

 

'Relevant' records

Citing confidential investigations, the Justice Department has refused lawmakers' request for the information.

 

The 2001 Patriot Act removed the requirement that the records sought be those of someone under suspicion.

 

As a result, FBI agents can review the digital records of a citizen as long as the bureau can certify that the person's records are "relevant" to a terrorist investigation.

 

Also part of the tentative agreement are modest new requirements on so-called roving wiretaps — monitoring devices placed on a single person's telephones and other devices to keep a target from evading law enforcement officials by switching phones or computers.

 

The tentative deal also would raise the threshold for securing business records under FISA, requiring law enforcement to submit a "statement of facts" showing "reasonable grounds to believe the records are relevant to an investigation.

 

Law enforcement officials also would have to show that an individual is in contact with or known to be in contact with a suspected agent of a foreign power.

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