Patriot Act *breaking news*

[fatcopone]

reverse pedophilia, (im interested in kabar)... anyway>

 

late entry:

 

kabar, what exactly is a war on terrorism? please tell me, because my government won't, and i don't think one can actually exist.

 

and why exactly should we take up arms within the constraints of the constitution? and, do you feel there may be some post-apocalyptic aftermath to this war??? do you feel you'd want to survive and try to restore hope to the world like mad max by defeating the evil government??? call me young and naiive but i agree with SPF. the RIGHT way (for me anyway) to defeat (or rebirth, you choose) our own country is through a peaceful protest and SMART living. NO commercialism, NO consumerism, NO blind hatred, NO MTV (have you seen these kids at the mall lately?) No No No etc etc. NO FUCKING OIL! why won't soldiers just not join the army? do they not understand that no one is attacking US? i'm just glad i won't ever give my life in the name of this rotten country...

 

if any of my comments sound attacking, cynical or snide, just blame MTV.

[KaBar]

You have a right to your views

 

What you apparently can't see is that those rights were secured by the militia and volunteers in the Continental Army, during the Revolution, and are today guaranteed by young men and women wearing the uniform of the United States. The phrase "It's a free country" means "We have liberty" not "The liberty that we enjoy didn't cost anything." You are completely free to do whatever you please, within the law, and if eating organically, riding a bicycle everywhere, dumpster-diving for the essentials is what you want to do, then I say, "Right on, brother!" The problem arises when just doing your thing isn't good enough. Ultimately, collectivists want to control what other people can and cannot do---like making somebody else ride a bicycle when what he wants to do is blow down the road in a giant gas-guzzling, jacked-up monster truck. As long as I'm armed, and I'm willing to pay the price, I can live as a free man. Without firearms, this is not the case. An unarmed population is essentially serfs. They have very little choice, or at least, that's how I feel about it. Maybe I'm wrong, whatever. I'm still not giving up my firearms.

 

The UN dreams of being able to TAX THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. Fuck them. They dream of restricting people to the cities, of having "no go" areas where people are forbidden to go (hey, it's on their own web site, or used to be.) Fuck that too, I'm not accepting the authority of the UN to say shit about life in the United States. This is OUR country, and they can kiss my ass. Will we see this BS in my lifetime? I doubt it. But they are thinking "long term." They may be able to convince the American people, slowly, to accept their totalitarian crap. I hope I'm dead before it happens. They have already tried designating AMERICAN National Parks as UN "Biosphere" areas. The public outrage was so great that the Park Service took down the signs. It's part of their scheme to tax us. (They need to tax us so they can "administer" our parks for us. Motherfuckers.)

Personally, I am not too enthusiastic, right now, about the war against Iraq. The problem isn't about humanitarian concerns, though, it's about the U.S. Congress. Our soldiers should not be engaged in warfare unless there is a DECLARATION OF WAR from the U.S. Congress. And if there is, then I say "Let's go get their ass." We do not need anybody's permission. We do not need anybody's support. We do not need any "coalition" of UN straphangers along for the ride. They have NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER OVER AMERICAN CITIZENS. If we wish to make war on Iraq, or Somalia, or Panama, or whomever, that's our business. Anybody doesn't like it, let them step up to the plate and say so. France comes to mind. (We SAVE THEIR ASS TWICE IN ONE CENTURY and this is what we get in return, those ungrateful sonsabitches. We should have let the Germans have their ass. Well, I take that back---we did get second-generation Jacqueline Kennedy from France, sort of. She was worth quite a bit. But other than that, how have they ever showed us any gratitude?)

 

If the American people don't like the government, let them VOTE THEIR CONSCIENCE and they can put somebody in office that does what they want. Instead, we get Demopublicans and Republicrats. No matter who bottles it, it still tastes the same. Our major companies no longer have any loyalty to the United States or the American people. By and large, they consider themselves "stateless." Especially the oil companies.

And their behavior reflects that. I am not a happy camper, but I definately am glad I do not live in Baghdad. I heard some American liberal peaceniks are going to Iraq to chain themselves to potential targets. What idiots. I hope they made out a will before they left.

 

The grunts are just doing what we ask them to do. Don't blame them. March and protest the war, if you want, but don't forget who protects your right to do so. In Iraq, if you protested, you'd wind up in the torture chambers of the Secret Police. Here, you can protest all you want, but it means virtually nothing. The government rolls on, regardless. Even the Vietnam War protests, probably ten times bigger than the Iraq protests, barely impeded the government.

[philestine]

"Let's go get their ass."

 

Whos ass exactly??

You don't need anybodys permission!?

Up until now, I thought your posts were reasonable and sensible, but after that paragraph, you reminded me of your President who thinks arrogance and self-righteousness is the way to go because US is "under-threat".

[KaBar]

Philistine

 

Man, you still don't get it. Read Clauswitz. "War is just politics by other means." There is no "reasonableness" about warfare. It's completely unjustified, unless you've got a knife to your throat, and if you're in that situation, you waited way too long. An example would be World War II. We never should have waited for Hitler to become that powerful. He should have been assassinated when he was still beating up Socialists in beer hall brawls. Did we have any justification for doing so? Not in 1933. But ten years later, with the ashes of six million murdered Jews drifting over Poland, we had 20-20 hindsight.

 

Let's fucking kill Saddam right now. He rates it.

 

No doubt you disagree, and I can understand why. But I think it's time to get real about Islamic fundamentalism. We created a Frankenstein and now they are running all over the middle east causing worlds of shit. I say that we can deal with them now, or we can deal with them later, but if you think that a guy like Saddam Hussein is ever going to play nice, think again. We could have killed Hitler easy as hell in 1933. Everybody knew he was trouble, even then. But "cooler heads prevailed." "Let's give diplomacy time to work." "Czechoslovakia is half German anyway." Yadda yadda yadda. I think you lack imagination. These people do not respect anything but force---you may disagree with me now, but ten years from now when you have been drafted and are sitting in a hole with a rifle fighting WWIII, you may remember my words. "Let's go get their ass while they are still weak enough for us to handle them easily."

[WISE]

Kabar, I agree with you 100%

[yoshy]

guns definitely solve problems. unfortunately they also create

problems. owning a gun doesnt solve everything. as a culture, as a

gov't in theory we strive to become better people, and create a

"better" environment. sometimes, the world, or our neighbors dont

agree with what actually is "better".

 

bottom line, if you use a gun to solve your problems, you are only

participating in a vicious cycle.

 

i am not saying that i am not apart of this cycle.

 

i also understand, kabar, that you might say one would use a gun

to make a situation "better" in order to foster an environment that

could spawn something "better".

 

unfortunately that is rarely the case. we seem to live in a world where

someone, somewhere is always "unjustly" suffering under someone else.

 

i dont know how to break that cycle...

[grittylifer]

Re: Philistine

 

Originally posted by KaBar

Let's fucking kill Saddam right now. He rates it.

 

*saddam aint doin shit to you. what the fuck do you care about iraqis and arabs? that fucker couldnt hit us with missles if he tried.

 

No doubt you disagree, and I can understand why. But I think it's time to get real about Islamic fundamentalism. We created a Frankenstein and now they are running all over the middle east causing worlds of shit. I say that we can deal with them now, or we can deal with them later, but if you think that a guy like Saddam Hussein is ever going to play nice, think again.

 

*so we should send our troops to die at the hands of his weapons of mass destruction we gave him?

 

We could have killed Hitler easy as hell in 1933. Everybody knew he was trouble, even then. But "cooler heads prevailed." "Let's give diplomacy time to work." "Czechoslovakia is half German anyway." Yadda yadda yadda. I think you lack imagination. These people do not respect anything but force---you may disagree with me now, but ten years from now when you have been drafted and are sitting in a hole with a rifle fighting WWIII, you may remember my words. "Let's go get their ass while they are still weak enough for us to handle them easily."

 

*this would make sense except for the fact that this war is the biggest chance of starting www3 and our military is capable to handle any country anywhere at anytime. not just on the bush administration time table...really though...we havent even won the war in afhganistan against rag tag rebels.....and now we are thinking we can invade a country with weapons of mass destruction who's leaders has allready used them twice in war and sent its citizens through two brutal wars in the last 25 years? Afghanistan should be the precurser to any other gulf war. The war in Afghanistan is sill raging. what makes you think Iraq will be diffrent.

 

And what I really dont understand Kabar, is where is all this blind faith in the bush administration coming from??

[KaBar]

Again, Fair Question

 

The Iraqi people have become masters at phony enthusiasm. As long as the cameras are rolling, they protest loudly, but as soon as the CNN crew goes back into their hotel, they all go home. I do not believe that the Iraqi people are committed to a last-ditch defense. For one thing, Saddam cannot afford to arm the population. Unlike the U.S., where there are enough firearms in the population to arm every man, woman and child, the Iraqi people are DISARMED. If Saddam passes out rifles to the people, it won't be Cruise missles or American snipers he needs to worry about.

 

I do not trust the Bush Administration very much. George W. isn't that much different than his father, and both of them are in the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations up to their eyeballs. Virtually every single Democratic and Republican politician and the majority of their advisors and Cabinet members are TL and CFR too. You may recall, George 41 was Director of the CIA at one time. George W. picked as his running mate Dick Cheney, who is a poster boy for the New World Order. These people are HOOKED UP, and they do what is best for themselves. You may roll your eyes and say "KaBar is totally off his rocker," but the fact remains that hundreds of key Government officials, industrial leaders, military officers, Repubicrat and Demopublican political party officials are all members of the same three or four extracurricular social and political organizations. Before you scoff, do the research. Add in their friends, acquaintances and business associates who are part of the "Bilderbergers," and suddenly the fact that 5% of the world's population owns or controls 90% of the world's wealth makes a lot more sense. The rest of us, including billions of starving, illiterate, Third World peasants, own the other 10% or so.

 

But, being a realist, I understand that you cannot have everything. We must do the best with what we have. The mass majority of Americans have no desire to upset the apple cart.

 

We have enemies in the world, who may not be any worse (and certainly no better) than our own leaders. The difference is that enemies of the United States are somewhat of a threat. Some are greater threats than others. I belive (but cannot prove) that a lot of Al-Quaida fighters are being killed wherever we find them, either by the U.S. Special Forces, or by Afghan proxy troops, fighting on behalf (and probably on the payroll of) the U.S. government. It is consistant with what I know about the U.S. armed forces. The war is easier to fight, and casualties are less of a problem politically, if the war in Afghanistan is fought without broadcast news coverage.

 

I am concerned about casualties, but we enjoy an ALL-VOLUNTEER ARMY. I knew when I signed up for the Marines that I was taking a little risk. The Marines have a saying, when war breaks out: "Oh well, let's go earn our pay." And put it in perspective. We lost 58,000 in Vietnam in eleven years of war. In WWII the Marines lost 10,000 Marines in three DAYS taking the island of Okinawa. An friend of mine has a story about his father fighting at Tarawa for three days with a captured Japanese rifle, because he lost all his equipment (including his rifle) when the coxswain dropped the ramp out about 50 yards from the beach. Most of his platoon drowned in deep water, loaded down with ammunition and water.

 

President Bush is an opportunist, like all politicians. They have been waiting for years and years for an external threat like this to create the Homeland Security Department. Now we will see an incremental erosion of our Constitutional rights, even worse than they already have. I don't really trust him, but he is pretty much all we have in terms of leadership. Where's Congress in all this?

[fatcopone]

Again with this gun thing. Kabar, are you saying that the citizens of the US do NOT really need guns, BUT we should ALL own one for a JUST IN CASE scenario??? I'm sorry, but is is hard to follow all the different angles you cover (they are much appreciated), but can you break your philosophy down in lamenms terms>??? Keep typing though, I like reading it.

[Guest WebsterUno]

so get yourself a gun and just be ready to

ride till the wheels fall off!

 

In laymans terms, RIDE OR DIE!

 

Serisouly, just hope for the best, expect the worst.

[RumPuncher]

Originally posted by WebsterUno

In laymans terms, RIDE OR DIE!

 

say Na-Na-Naa! unngh!

[Guest WebsterUno]

with a bottle of bub!

[some pittsburgh flavor]

fatcop... Aus-Rotten - "They Ignore Peaceful Protest"

check it out

 

and i think yesterday's post-gazette had a front page headline reading:

"Bush: Protests deemed insignifigant" or something like that

 

i dont think the protests held in pgh recently did much of anything, and it may have to turn to not-so-peaceful to get the point across.

 

 

on the 'help SPF and Kanedigital buy amps before the Ramones tribute show" tip, i screen print PGHHC shirts with the upside-down star logo on them, any color shirt, any size, any color ink, forl ike $4 or something... pass the word on/hit me up if you're interested

[suburbian bum]

Re: You have a right to your views

 

Originally posted by KaBar

Even the Vietnam War protests, probably ten times bigger than the Iraq protests, barely impeded the government.

And did you see how big of a fucking waste of peoples lives the vietnam war was?

[KaBar]

You're preaching to the choir on that one

 

I spent years of my life protesting the Vietnam War. It was the major thing in my life from 1965 until well into the mid-70's. After all that effort, all those protests, all those leaflets and spray-paint runs, I came out of "the Movement" (the anti-war movement, of course) less convinced than when I went in. There was a quote from some military officer lookingg back on the Vietnam War that goes "We had to get out of Vietnam before it destroyed the U.S. Army." He didn't mean "destoyed" as in killed by the enemy, he meant "fractured politically to the point that it will never be repairable." There was open hostility between the rank-and-file soldiers (especially draftees) and the NCO's and officers. And even some of the "R-A's" ("regular Army--i.e., men who enlisted deliberately.)

 

Vietnam was a very bad war. It took forever, there were no clear-cut victories, and the enemy used every opportunity to spread dissension, narcotics, etc. within the American forces. Many Vietnamese girls who supported the Viet Cong became prostitutes, and used their profession to gather information. Plenty of American soldiers were killed in back alleys after a night of drinking.

 

Are there any "good" wars? Nope. Not really. But Vietnam came along at a rather unfortunate period in American history, and we had the civil rights movement, the hippie movement, the "if it feels good, do it" thing, the anti-war movement, all happening at the same time. It has been described as a "revolutionary" period, and while I don't think it qualifies for that sobriquet (well, almost) it was definately a period of social upheaval.

[fatcopone]

i totally agree with you there kabar. if there is one good thing happeneing right now, it is one of the largest anti war movements in the history of the US...

[KaBar]

Be careful of what you ask for

 

If the current anti-war movement gains enough steam to prevent the U.S. from waging war on Iraq, through political means, and then Saddam does something like nerve-gas the shit out of Kuwait, boy won't you be sorry. I'm not convinced that war with Iraq is the best thing, but I'm also not convinced that Saddam doesn't need a 9mm between the headlights, either. I don't think the Iraqi people will resist. If we smoke Saddam and all the top generals, the Iraqi people would probably welcome us as liberators.

[grittylifer]

I agree Kabar.

But at the same time the people calling for war are undoubtedly questionable.

I advocate the removal of Saddam, however I do not advocate uneccesarry civilian casualties.

You bring a good point, if that crazy bastard hits Kuwait, shit would go down...but it is the entire handling of the region by our goverment that is not sound.

I still am of the belief that resolution of the Palestinien Israeli conflict would greatly ease tensions in the region as well as destroy the clout of any reprisals from neighboring countrys.

Fuck it. The father of our president was vp to the man in charge of the administration that armed him. We were short sighted then, so perhaps longterm we shouldnt make the mistake again.

We had our rep. at the UN going on and on about violations Iraq has made to UN mandates, but at the same time Israel is in violation as well.

I dont really care either way.

Why didnt we asasinate him in the 80s instead of arming him?

And why is the Israeli Palestine conflict not resolved? Why are our troops still being attacked in Afghanistan? And what the fuck is up with North Korea?

What I was thinking about today was how the bush cheney admin. went in with an almost 6 trillion surplus bugdet wise and now were almost 6 trillion in debt. Trillion is a big number. Where the fuck did the money go? And besides that , where were we when the Iraqi people rose up against saddam after desert storm?

[KaBar]

All Very Good Questions

 

And if I had the answers to many of them, I'd probably be a foreign policy genius instead of a nurse. I doubt that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is going to be resolved anytime soon. It has been going on all my life, and no doubt it will still be going on after I'm gone. The Palestinians were sort of used as pawns by the Arab nations around Israel. During the 1948 war, when the British pulled out of what was called the Palestine Mandate (it was like a British protectorate), there was an immediate civil war between the Jews and the other residents of the Mandate. After a brief war, thousands of Moslem Arabs (and a lot of Christian Arabs too) left Palestine, refusing to be governed under a Jewish government. They went to refugee camps in nearby Arab countries. They should have been absorbed into the population of those countries, but instead, they were set up in permenant refugee camps, and some lived there for thirty or forty years. Lebanon took in hundreds of thousands. When the PLO was formed, it began making plans for terrorism, but it also did a lot of humanitarian things too, setting up clinics, hospitals, schools, etc. The Israelis have fought five or six wars against the Arab states. The Arabs attack Israel repeatedly, and Israel always wins. So far. They have made various attempts over the years to make peace, but never successfully.

The PLO attempted to seize control of Lebanon back in the 1970's, and the Lebanese population split into rival factions. In Beirut, especially, the city was divided into what amounts to rival mafia clans, each with it's own religion, political party and business interests. The Lebanese Christians were outnumbered, and getting pounded hard, so they made coalition with the Israelis, who then armed and equipped them with armored personnel carriers and artillery and heavy mortars, even a few small armored cars, sort of like a tank with wheels. It was the Lebanese Christian militias that massacred the Palestinians in the Shatilla (sp?) refugee camp. The Israelis were blamed, saying that they should have stopped it, but frankly, these hatreds go a lot deeper than that. It wasn't a contract killing, it was hate-filled payback for years of Palestinian intrigue in Lebanon. Eventually the U.N. brokered a departure of the PLO from Beirut on ships, and they left, with U.S. Marines providing a very uneasy "security buffer" between the warring factions. In 1979, Lebanon looked like Berlin after WWII. Every building was flattened, just about. It has recovered a lot in the 20 years since. At one time, before all this shit started, it was called "the Switzerland of the Middle East." It looked like Miami Beach, back in the day. Today, Syria controls most of Lebanon, I think, or at least, they used to do so. For a while, Israel occupied South Lebanon (the mostly Christian area) and used it as a buffer zone to keep the terrorist groups from attacking Israel from there. They moved out a few years ago and gave it back over to the Lebanese.

To tell you the truth, it would be a full-time 24/7 job trying to keep track of all the plots and counter-plots, intifadas, uprisings, terrorist attacks---who has time for this shit? It's not as simple as some people would lead you to believe. Don't fall for the "The Israelis are evil monsters" shit. There is plenty of blame to go around. The neo-Nazis in Germany love the Palestinians because both sides hate Jews. It's a fucked-up, hate-filled mess and I am very grateful I don't live there.

[Rojotelefono]

Ok, due to today's events I've been checking out american politics... had a look at the Patriot Act.

My god, talk about a licence to fuck people over

 

The bit that caught my eye though was pretty near the top: provision to employ translators

 

To me, it just says it all; america takes no notice of the rest of the world, unless something happens on its home ground (ie. 9/11), then america's polititians run around like chickens with their heads cut off and its war... 'oops I guess we're gonna have to know what these people are saying before we fuck them up.."

 

No beef with you guys, it's just that I've got no idea what the people in power over there think they're doing (or here for that matter, but that's a different rant)

 

You'd think that nobody had ever had an act of terrorism against them...israel/palestine, Ireland, Spain, Japan, et al all seem to be able to manage without using it as an excuse to go and level a country...

 

Yes, I know it's old news, but I kinda got fired up today for some reason.

 

Peace

[deph]

Yeah in Feiren Height 9/11 Micheal Moore talks about this act. Apparently most of congress hadn't read it because it got published in the middle of the night. Oh what a great country.

[Juan Fuentes]

FREE PALESTINE!

[Guest willy.wonka]

im suprised that nobody is really talking about this one... basically, they can take you and murder you and not tell you why they are doing it.

[Guest KING BLING]

Originally posted by willy.wonka@Dec 9 2004, 03:21 PM

im suprised that nobody is really talking about this one... basically, they can take you and murder you and not tell you why they are doing it.

Quoted post

 

Is this sarcasm? Could you explain?

[!@#$%]

bump

[wiseguy]

great, fucking great, we are all fucked now.

[casekonly]

[iloveboxcars]

i am confused as fuck. was some pittsburgh flavor arguing with himself on the first page? i didnt really get passed his argument.. sometimes he would direct to kabar.. but..

 

yeah....

[robJ]

..Remember Rubie Ridge ...

 

It still amazing me on how blind the citizens are towards the US goverment. I'm waiting on the day the Goverment installs a form of Marshall law for "our" security....

[casekonly]

what about leonard peltier?