Guest imported_Tesseract Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 So i've been thinking about that shit, why is it that all the talk about human rights concerns other parts of the world? I came to the conclusion that there's no other term as abstract than human rights. Check any era in history, people just got steped over again and again. Christians in Crusades...Germans on world domination...Europeans on colonialism...Mushlims on jihad...Communists on Communism...Alexander the great on world domination...US on peacekeeping...Rome in Empire...and the list goes on, masacre upon masacre in the name of something, an idea and a cause. Another funny abstract term is WarCrimes, what the fuck does that mean? You're not allowed to shoot a footsoldier with a tankcanon...fuck yeah, since when killing people was such a noble sport that rules where involved? Point being made is that human rights and war crimes are made up terms of things that never existed, or more likely they existed as a phenomenon thats always happening, shits so old and profound that could be called 'nature' as well. Dont get me wrong, i'm not saying that we should tolerate with all that, but to me the whole talk is made by a bunch of rich wives that talk about poverty over tea at hilton. Its disorientating at least, to have the media decide whats the new hot place on earth to help while 70% of the world is suffering the same shit....uthiopia is sooo 89'... Or having the UN calling some country leader War Criminal while the leaders that bombed the shit out of his ass are nominated for peace nobel prize. To sum it up, do you think that third world citizens have time to demonstrate about their violated rights? no, they just cope with life the best they can...Do you think that prisoners in Turkey are benefitted from reports? I doubt it...I remember someone talking about how cheap human life is in the third or even the second world...well life's cheap in first world equally...we just get to file reports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 At least you didnt say 'first'...go sniff undies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest socrates Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 War Crimes are when the UN is too afraid too prevent a genocide so they wait til it's over to stop them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effyoo Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 made up rules for so-called civilized countries to follow, and when they break them they get away with it anyway. unless its america of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by socrates War Crimes are when the UN is too afraid too prevent a genocide so they wait til it's over to stop them exactly. Milosevic was a pretty evil dude. Ordering the mass murder of thousands of civilians and putting them in mass graves. Then after the US began our "War on Terrorism" Milosevic was trying to say he was the first to fight the war. Saying the people he was killing were Islamic terrorists. Yeaaah sure buddy. He was trying to say he was just like the US. There is a difference between killing innocent civilians on purpose and mass burying them to hide the fact and the US dropping a bomb on some heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by Pistol exactly. Milosevic was a pretty evil dude. Ordering the mass murder of thousands of civilians and putting them in mass graves. Then after the US began our "War on Terrorism" Milosevic was trying to say he was the first to fight the war. Saying the people he was killing were Islamic terrorists. Yeaaah sure buddy. He was trying to say he was just like the US. There is a difference between killing innocent civilians on purpose and mass burying them to hide the fact and the US dropping a bomb on some heads. Hahaha, funny you mention cause that was the example i wrote in the first place, without dropping names...you got it a bit wrong there. Milosevic was and is a bastard, responsible for many bad things in yugoslavia. After the civil war between the christians and the mushlims and the split of yugoslavia in two, The US, the whole NATO actually decided to move in an operation to destroy the dude. The whole op was suposed to last three days and it was planned as massive air attacks, as usual. The op was a failure that lasted about two weeks, if you believe that only 'some heads' were hit, dont...Belgrade, the capitol was totally destroyed, all the bridges were bombed and lots of civilians were killed. After the whole thing ended milosevits was captured and thrown to court for warcrimes and Clinton and Blur were nominated for the peace nobel prize for the same war. Apart from all that, Al quida members and camps are known to exist in albania, yugoslavia and the balcans in general and milosevic is partially right because if he fought muslims he had to do with them aswell inside his own counrty. I think that milosevic never stated that he is the same with US, more like that he did the same thing but didnt get away with it and a nobel prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest --zeSto-- Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Not only are the terms war criminal and Human rights misued, so is the word terrorism. That word has been tossed around so much of late, and for obvious reasons, it really stings! But let's clear something up. There's a HUGE difference between Terrorism and Guerilla Actions. The Isreali government considers any act of agresstion towards it an act of terrorism. Well sure a suicide bombing is terror, but attacking a war tank with a rocket launcher is a guerilla action. As much as US foreign policy may disagree, Just because your group doesn't have millions to put towards the 'defence department' and they dont have a useless seat at NATO, doesn't make them a terrorist faction. Soliders killing soldiers is fine by me. Civilians killing soldiers in defence is fine for me too. Soldiers launching an offencive against civilians is NEVER ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissmyass#1 Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 there is "no peace, without war." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shameless self promotion Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 http://www.americanjackass.net/pics/taliban_douchebags.gif'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Are2 Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 a short look at some of what the japanese did to the chinese post WWII is a perfect example of war crimes and human rights violations.. the rape of nan kang is a book about it.. i won't go into it, but the soldiers abused and sexually tortured the citizens of china, often in public, and leaving the remains of their victims on display...some of what they did is fucking horrendous...with broomsticks, shovels, bayonets, etc..really gut-wrenching and for a modern example, look at sierra leone.. children whose parents(innocent civilians) were murdered they were then kidnapped and forced (usually at gunpoint) to become soldiers themselves...forced to rape, mutilate, dismember. take cocaine and dope, and go into battle..these were children...teenage boys. their victims fared no better...often missing feet or hands, sometimes more, the people of sierra leone have been abused and fucked over as much as any other group in history it seems... all so some fucking bitch can have her diamond ring... those are war crimes.. and those are people who cannot help themselves, and need a decrepit, poorly run instituion like the u.n. to come in and try to help them.. and by the way, nothing al qaeda did in the balkans is enough to justify milosevic's 'ethnic cleansing' plan.. can you imagine??!!! what would happen if pres.bush decided that was how the u.s. would fight sleeper terrorist cells in the u.s. (which there undoubtedly are).. by fucking "ethnic cleansing?!" get real...that was fucking genocide! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BROWNer Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by Tesseract ...go sniff undies ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by Are2 and those are people who cannot help themselves, and need a decrepit, poorly run instituion like the u.n. to come in and try to help them.. and by the way, nothing al qaeda did in the balkans is enough to justify milosevic's 'ethnic cleansing' plan.. can you imagine??!!! what would happen if pres.bush decided that was how the u.s. would fight sleeper terrorist cells in the u.s. (which there undoubtedly are).. by fucking "ethnic cleansing?!" get real...that was fucking genocide! To start with, Al qaeda did nothing in the balcans apart from hiding and organising, what happened there was a civil war between people of two different religion groups, christians and mushlims. To take it back in history, the communist party leader and prime general secretary of former yugoslavia, TITO was the man that got mushlims and christians to live together united for a long period of time. TITO, like all communist leaders was a 'religious' icon there, so while he was around he was worshipped by both groups that left aside their religious differences for the moment. Now everyone that knows a bit of history knows that religion always creates discort. And so it happened, after TITO died hell broke loose, muslims and christsians went from brothers to killing their selfs for over a decade. If you leave CNN out and use common sense you'll realise that in a civil war where people claim the same land they were born cannibalsm is given on both sides. I dont see how mushlims and christians had a different plan than wipping eachother from the face of earth, or just yugoslavia. Where do you draw the line between who's ethnic cleansing plan was wrong and right? They both wanted the country 'clean' I wont even pick a side cause i really hate em both and i dont see a difference between them. I dont know what makes you think that pres.Bush runs a fair battle, or if your countrys internal fight against terrorism is going on through democratic prceedures, still you can easily imagine that even in the US the backround of a civil war leaves space for many many things. As far as UN is concerned i concider their help 'picky' for example, Turkey continues the genocide against the kurds, there are thousands of reports in all the organisations about human rights, the french voted one year ago the decision to label the turks fight against the kurds 'genocide' still noone is sending 'peacetroops' or any kind of aid, simply because turkey is US's homeboy in the middleast, they provide, airbases next to irak, they're NATO member and above all OIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Brown, i stole your line homeboy, pardon me but its the best damn thing you can say to some of our 'friends':) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by --zeSto-- Not only are the terms war criminal and Human rights misued, so is the word terrorism. That word has been tossed around so much of late, and for obvious reasons, it really stings! But let's clear something up. There's a HUGE difference between Terrorism and Guerilla Actions. The Isreali government considers any act of agresstion towards it an act of terrorism. Well sure a suicide bombing is terror, but attacking a war tank with a rocket launcher is a guerilla action. As much as US foreign policy may disagree, Just because your group doesn't have millions to put towards the 'defence department' and they dont have a useless seat at NATO, doesn't make them a terrorist faction. Soliders killing soldiers is fine by me. Civilians killing soldiers in defence is fine for me too. Soldiers launching an offencive against civilians is NEVER ok. so why can civilians attack soldiers, but soldiers cant attack civilians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Are2 Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by Tesseract To start with, Al qaeda did nothing in the balcans apart from hiding and organising, what happened there was a civil war between people of two different religion groups, christians and mushlims. did nothing? hiding an organizing is obviously critical to their operations.. and remember, you brought it up that al qaeda was there and that was a reason milosevic attacked them I wont even pick a side cause i really hate em both and i dont see a difference between them. then why try to justify their actions? it is not a matter of who is wrong and who is right.. its a matter of ethnic cleansing is wrong.. I dont know what makes you think that pres.Bush runs a fair battle, or if your countrys internal fight against terrorism is going on through democratic prceedures, still you can easily imagine that even in the US the backround of a civil war leaves space for many many things. i NEVER claimed that anything about the u.s. is right or fair.. simply that one could not get away with ethnic cleansing here i also never tried to justify the u.s.'s actions and civil rights violations in this so-callled war. As far as UN is concerned i concider their help 'picky' for example, Turkey continues the genocide against the kurds, there are thousands of reports in all the organisations about human rights, the french voted one year ago the decision to label the turks fight against the kurds 'genocide' still noone is sending 'peacetroops' or any kind of aid, simply because turkey is US's homeboy in the middleast, they provide, airbases next to irak, they're NATO member and above all OIL. i'm also not defending the u.n. which, if you read my original post said they were decrepit.. in other words, a dead or dying organization.. but they are there and maybe do a little good for some of the downtrodden, forgetten of the human race.. i thought you started this to discuss the human rights of innocents but instead it may be a soapbox against current government climates and u.s. foreign policy whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 To start with, Al qaeda did nothing in the balcans apart from hiding and organising, what happened there was a civil war between people of two different religion groups, christians and muslims. did nothing? hiding an organizing is obviously critical to their operations.. and remember, you brought it up that al qaeda was there and that was a reason milosevic attacked them I said that milosevic attacked muslims and al qaeda as muslims not as terrorist group, when i say that they didnt do anything there i meant that they used the place as a hideout among muslims...a good place to camp..you get the difference? I wont even pick a side cause i really hate em both and i dont see a difference between them. then why try to justify their actions? it is not a matter of who is wrong and who is right.. its a matter of ethnic cleansing is wrong.. Once more, i said a million times that Milosevic is a murderer/Ethnic cleansing is Bad but it was the same goal for both christians and muslims...you agree? cause right now the one party is charged with it and the other is not. When i say who's wrong and who's right i mean that they're both guilty I dont know what makes you think that pres.Bush runs a fair battle, or if your countrys internal fight against terrorism is going on through democratic prceedures, still you can easily imagine that even in the US the backround of a civil war leaves space for many many things. i NEVER claimed that anything about the u.s. is right or fair.. simply that one could not get away with ethnic cleansing here i also never tried to justify the u.s.'s actions and civil rights violations in this so-callled war. I just underlined that the backroung of a civil war is a good ground for even worse tactics As far as UN is concerned i concider their help 'picky' for example, Turkey continues the genocide against the kurds, there are thousands of reports in all the organisations about human rights, the french voted one year ago the decision to label the turks fight against the kurds 'genocide' still noone is sending 'peacetroops' or any kind of aid, simply because turkey is US's homeboy in the middleast, they provide, airbases next to irak, they're NATO member and above all OIL. i'm also not defending the u.n. which, if you read my original post said they were decrepit.. in other words, a dead or dying organization.. but they are there and maybe do a little good for some of the downtrodden, forgetten of the human race.. Suspitiously Picky, i gave you a valid example on that. Of course, better than nothing i guess... i thought you started this to discuss the human rights of innocents but instead it may be a soapbox against current government climates and u.s. foreign policy whatever You thought wrong, in both cases, this thread is not about the human rights of the innocent, its about the terms 'Human Rights' and 'War Crimes' and the way that they're used/dealt with...i think its preety obvious from the beggining. As far as this thread being "a soapbox against current government climates and u.s. foreign policy" i disagree, i dont think my points and facts lead there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YasserArafat Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Ariel Sharon is a War Criminal responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre, and he, contrary to what George Bush says, is NOT a man of peace. Peace with the people of Palestine is the furthest thing on his mind. The state of Israel, by the way, has recieved the most and the harshest condemnations by the UN Human Rights, and other human right advocates as well, for its constant human rights abuses . By far more than any other country in the world. remember it is the Israeli army that has had the people of Plaestine under military occupation and oppression for 54 years. This is not the first intifada (uprising, for you americans, think of it as a revolution) and if the rest of the world leaders wish to remain silent, then the people of Palestine have no options left but to fend for themselves using any means humanly possible to defend their people, their land, and their dignity. The saddest man in the world is one who has no country to call his own. I, General Arafat, the Chairman of the Palestinian Liberation Organization and President of the Palestinian Authority will continue to pursue justice by meeting with other just and understanding leaders from other countries to continue to request international intervention, to protect the people of Palestine from the Israeli atrocities and Human Rights abuses. General Arafat has spoken, and will now retire to masterbate over a chinese women wearing a skirt thats bending over right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 well the thing is. when you have a large part of a movement that has a gunman go to an Israeli school and open up with semi-auto artillery with the sole intention of killing little Israeli children i say fuck the rest of them too. they need to be handled from within the organization or else it will corrupt and taint the whole thing. right about now i have bno sympathy for those Palestinian guerillas. Tesseract. When the sentencing phase for Milosevic was happening a while back he did mention that he was the one that actually started the "war on terrorism" that the US is taking care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Originally posted by Pistol Tesseract. When the sentencing phase for Milosevic was happening a while back he did mention that he was the one that actually started the "war on terrorism" that the US is taking care of. as i said earlier "I think that milosevic never stated that he is the same with US, more like that he did the same thing but didnt get away with it and a nobel prize." I hope you see the sarcasm behind that. And pistol, i dont want to believe that your judgement is so onesided and narrow. Blasting terrorists is one thing, Blasting everyone is another...which brings up another abstract term...Collateral Damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esai Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 On the definition of terror tip, Its funny to me how the US was acting so shocked by that al quada video where they show all kinds of terrrorist info.This coming from A country that runs a entire school with dozens of terrorism classes called the school of the americas(or i think the name changed). Many of these classes specifically address how to torture, overthow govts, make and use bombs and various weapons,etc,etc. Many various war criminals and trrorist gruops have alumni from this school. A little genocide and juice por favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.T Boy Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 TT/taking over the world. believe dat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyeattoywar Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 yeah the soa is intense stuff. they are now going by western hemisphere institute for security cooperation. yep, fort benning georgia. hey ttboy, give me my own island.. i believe in you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLIK$ Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 Burn rape and pillage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spectr Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 ok well no matter what there will be war crimes thats the way life goes the united states commits war crimes every day isreal is a racist terrorist state it just doesnt matter anymore though the poeple lost what little power they did have all cross the world to puppet regimes and MNC'S no why dont we all just drink our coco cola and eat our mc donalds and just remenber to watch tv so you know what else to buy.. oh and tesseract wait until some racist goverment with the support of the people steals your home moves you to a refugee camp destroys your schools destroys all utiltys drives tanks over your cars demolishes your new home kills half your family then exiles the other half across a sea and tells you you cant leave your house until they say you can but you got to strip and get naked everyday for a week so they can make sure you have no weapons.... lets see how much hate you have.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dusty Lipschitz Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 http://www.soaw.org i cant believe how in some areas i consider myself well versed, in others, like the whole arafat/sharon debacle. i am embarassingly ignorant. human rights v. war crimes? collateral damage? all propaganda. depends which side you are on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 Originally posted by spectr oh and tesseract wait until some racist goverment with the support of the people steals your home moves you to a refugee camp destroys your schools destroys all utiltys drives tanks over your cars demolishes your new home kills half your family then exiles the other half across a sea and tells you you cant leave your house until they say you can but you got to strip and get naked everyday for a week so they can make sure you have no weapons.... lets see how much hate you have.. Care to explain what's this about? i kinda lost you there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spectr Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 well the thing is. when you have a large part of a movement that has a gunman go to an Israeli school and open up with semi-auto artillery with the sole intention of killing little Israeli children i say fuck the rest of them too. they need to be handled from within the organization or else it will corrupt and taint the whole thing. right about now i have bno sympathy for those Palestinian guerillas. sorry tesseract i accidently qouted pistol and said it was your quote sorry what i was stating is that hamas and other palestinian groups are legitamite resistance to isreali terror sorry abotut he confusion i didnt mean to qoute you i was kinda drunk at the time off those pbr poundahs dudah sorry but dope thread i think this is one of the few good threads on 12oz actually some intelligent conversation on here. now onto the u.n. remenber they are constrained by the permanent menbers of the security council such as the united states remenber the united states has veto power and uses it often on issuses of peacekeeper missions so u.s. coporate intrests are protected... sorry yet again tesseract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 actually the term human rights is pretty rigidly defined... it basically includes the right to free speech, freedom to choose a profession and freedom to live without fear of physical oppression... not much else... and we don't have to look to third world countries to find it, let's just look at the disparities, racial, educational and otherwise inherent in the US penal system And war crimes... basically, you may shoot anyone wearing an enemy uniform without repercussion, you may shoot collaborators NOT sympathizers without repercussion. You may not shoot unarmed civilians, armed civilians may be detained but not shot. You may not rape the women or plunder. Most importantly, you must try to make an honest accounting of all lives taken during a conflict (civilian and otherwise), basically this means NO mass graves like the ones found in sattalite photos of Kosovo. It doesn't matter what side you're on... since it's football season let's make an analogy (this is SO original)... if football is war then penalties are 'war crimes' some are minor like offsides but a blatant face mask or unneccesary roughness after the play has ended are major and carry a heavier penalty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Well said Smart, i'll have to clarify that calling those terms 'abstract' doesnt have to do that they lack a definition or a meaning in any way. Their abstract side is the fact the are selectively used. To take it to football, rules apply to both teams and the ref must not be a bitch! But war isnt football in any way and i doubt that there's a single one in the human history that involved 'fair play'. Spectr, its ok dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 spectr i can't understand shit you said. Hamas might have originated as a legitimate Guerilla group to help the struggle of the Palestinan. But i';m sorry that's not what they are today. These people are strapping bombs to themselves going to crowded pizza parlors and malls and supermarkets and detonating themselves with bombs filled with metal shrapnel with the sole intention to kill innocent jews. They are not trying to free palestine. If they think they are helping the cause they are sadly mistaken. Breaking into settlements regarldless of the legalilty of how the land was taken and killing entire families in the middle of the night with rifles is wrong period. once again this is not going to get their land back. I live in what some to consider Occupied Mexico or Aztlan. But you don't see me going into white areas and killing innocent white people because the US stole our land a hundred years ago. You don't see me organizing people to go explode at shopping malls or grocery stores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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