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Guest Canadiano

Confederate Flag

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Guest Canadiano

okay, okay, sheesh!:rolleyes:

 

lighten up, man. Smoke a cigarette.

 

I hear you, and you answer my questions, but I guess I already knew all that. I asked those questions so I could see what people's opinions are, and see if we could delve deeper into the subject. I was looking for arguments that justified a reason to keep the flag up and around (and not being hated on), or to take it down (because it's hated on). I think it should be a source of pride and nothing else to Southerners, and I guess you think that it is all relative, and always will be. But do you think it should be?

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ok this is one of the few times i’m going to comment...

there’s allot of ignorance surrounding the confederate flag which meaning takes root during the american civil war.. for one it was not fought for slavery, and lincoln could give a fuck less- it was fought to keep the union together, and as lincoln said if i could keep the union together without freeing a single slave i would, but if i have to free all the

slaves i will...

the confederate flag for the south stood for the right for self-government and to protect a way of life- basically the same reasons the american revolution was fought for but anyway

read up..

in no way does that justify,or excuse slavery and death upon death- but the confederate flag has come to symbolize something that in essence it truly isn’t due to -- aah fuck it..

i’m tired..

we see what we want to see....

and they only tell us what they want us to know.

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^^^ naw man, i hate the damn thing. to me it represents the negative. but if it symbolizes southern pride to someone with nothing else, none of the negative, then though i may not agree, to each their own, i'm not a 'my way or the highway' type person. but at the same time that person needs to realize that people may question thier beliefs or may get the wrong idea about them.

 

oh and i don't smoke cigs, maybe i could use a drink though.....

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over here people rock those "NO FEAR" stickers which is sometimes racist cuz its stands for National Organization For European American Rights which is David Duke's lil group he has goin on.

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Guest mafIAkilla

a few points.....

-the confederate flag was not the official flag of the confederate states,rather just a flag to carry into battle

-the civil war was almost not at all fought over slavery,rather a group of states' rights to form their own country (which is exactly what the american revolution was fought over)

-thomas jefferson,the man that wrote the words "all men are created equal",owned the most slaves in virginia,as did many of the founding fathers,but the american flag is not seen as racist or oppressive

-i fly the flag to represent southern heritage and pride in where i come from,yet i am a very open minded and cultured individual,as many people that fly the flag are

-first amendment rights grant me the freedom to do this.....

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fuck what people say or think, especially some kids on the net. sure, you might get your ass beat one day for having that flag around, but if you don't give a fuck, neither do i, neither do i...

 

to each their own...

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Originally posted by seeking

so by your rational, theres nothing wrong with germany continuing to use the swastika as its national symbol? that jews, russians, italians and gypseys shouldnt feel any alienation, sorrow, or anger when they see the flag flying above their government buildings?

that they will be able to remove the fact that under its rule, 13 million people were murdered?

 

100 million africans died or were murdered during the slave trade, dont tell me the flag that the slave owners chose to represent themselves, doesnt still carry that debt on its back.

 

seeking 100 million? there are only about 300 million people in the US today. if there were 100 million who were killed, what about the living. they are called a minority because there aren't as many.

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Originally posted by Smart

? Why is Nazi paraphenallia illegal over there?

 

:

 

well the german people are so ashamed of the past they dont want to see that ever again.

 

aaaaaaaaaand there are swastikas painted all over the streets of italy.

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Originally posted by T.T Boy

 

well the german people are so ashamed of the past they dont want to see that ever again.

 

aaaaaaaaaand there are swastikas painted all over the streets of italy.

 

Right, and in America we plaster the Rebel flag on the back window of the pick up and shout "The South Shall Rise Again!!!"

 

Also, it is fair to point out that in countries like the ROI and UK the rebel flag is seen as just that, a symbol of defiance, as opposed to a symbol of oppression.

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Originally posted by Smart

 

Also, it is fair to point out that in countries like the ROI and UK the rebel flag is seen as just that, a symbol of defiance, as opposed to a symbol of oppression.

 

 

I think its becoming that in many places, because unlike the swastika, its pretty easy to see that the people under it weren't any worse than their opponents. The civil war wasn't really about the slaves at all.....................................

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why don't you stick to telling people how they don't know anything about your own country

 

On the deepest level the war of seccession was the battle between an outdated and corrupt econimic system vs. the birth of the industrial revolution (YEAH LUDDITES!)... Also, on a bit more surface level, it was a war to determine the rights of states to choose their own laws and not be controlled by some fat cats in Washington, the 'powder keg' issue? SLAVERY!

 

Just because you all got old enough to finally comprehend and be taught the OTHER reasons that led up to the Civil War, don't be so arrogant as to assume slavery had nothing to do with it. The slavery issue was pivotal...

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Originally posted by Smart

why don't you stick to telling people how they don't know anything about your own country

 

 

No.

 

 

damn that was easy

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i guess its a good thing you didnt need to know american history to get into art school...................the second time around, huh?

 

 

 

dam that was easier........:lol:

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Guest mafIAkilla
Originally posted by Smart

why don't you stick to telling people how they don't know anything about your own country

 

On the deepest level the war of seccession was the battle between an outdated and corrupt econimic system vs. the birth of the industrial revolution (YEAH LUDDITES!)... Also, on a bit more surface level, it was a war to determine the rights of states to choose their own laws and not be controlled by some fat cats in Washington, the 'powder keg' issue? SLAVERY!

 

Just because you all got old enough to finally comprehend and be taught the OTHER reasons that led up to the Civil War, don't be so arrogant as to assume slavery had nothing to do with it. The slavery issue was pivotal...

this war was fought over states rights to govern themselves.....quoting abraham lincol to the house of representatives on jan 12,1848 "any people,anywhere,being inclined,and having the power,have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form one that suits them better".....northerners owned just as many slaves as southerners did,giving them a vested interest in slavery. do you think they would have waged a war over slavery if that in turn meant that their slaves would be emancipated?i think not.....

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Originally posted by mafIAkilla

this war was fought over states rights to govern themselves.....quoting abraham lincol to the house of representatives on jan 12,1848 "any people,anywhere,being inclined,and having the power,have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form one that suits them better".....

 

Execpt the confederate states right? I don't think that quote means what you think it does... But if you think you can use it to somehow prove that Lincoln approved of the Confederacy or slavery, then, by all means...

 

The Lincoln Quote of the week: "The slave-breeders and slave-traders, are a small, odious and detested class, among you; and yet in politics, they dictate the course of all of you, and are as completely your masters, as you are the masters of your own negroes."

 

Originally posted by mafIAkilla

northerners owned just as many slaves as southerners did,giving them a vested interest in slavery. do you think they would have waged a war over slavery if that in turn meant that their slaves would be emancipated?i think not.....

 

You think WRONG... the northern states didn't own slaves on ANYWHERE near the scale of the southern plantation owners... You obviously know nothing about the war and absolutely nothing about the 50 or so years that led up to it...

 

sit down

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I really ought to know better than to get into this debate, but here goes:

First of all, very few Soutrherners owned slaves. They were very expensive, costing between $800 to $1,500 for a healthy young man. Women and children went for less, because their ability to produce was less. The average wage for a working-class white man in 1850 was about a dollar a day. So I doubt very many white families owned many slaves. Some of the larger farms that owned none might have rented them out from larger plantations, though. Slavery was extremely inefficient. The owner was required to feed them even in the winter when there was considerably less work to be done. The average working life of a slave was less than thirty years. The Industrial Revolution solved this dilemma. Northerners just fired their workers in the winter and let them fend for themselves.

By the way, although you'll never read it in any history book printed today, Jefferson Davis FREED THE SLAVES FIRST. And Abraham Lincoln only freed the slaves in CONFEDERATE-HELD AREAS. The black slaves in the Union states were still slaves, and remained so until Reconstruction started. Lincoln's intention in freeing the slaves in the South was to deprive the Confederacy of it's black labor force. When the slaves made their way north, they were rounded up and held in Freedmen's Bureau compounds, and not permitted to roam freely. Davis attempted to stop the flow of black labor to the north by proclaiming all slaves free in the South and requiring Southern plantation owners, etc., to pay wages, but few agreed and fewer still ever freed any slaves.

 

The Civil War was only called the Civil War in the NORTH. Down here in the South, all my life, I have heard that unfortunate conflict called "The War Between the States." Lately an old name has been resurrected among re-enactors and the like--they call it "The War of Northern Aggression." Essentially, Lincoln was America's Lenin. He successfully gutted the Constitution and made the Federal government superior to that of the sovereign States. Prior to 1865, each State government was sovereign unto itself, and except as provided for in the Constitution, conducted it's own business. After the WBTS, the South was politically neutered, and essentially, the Democratic Party (THE PARTY OF SLAVERY) was completely neutralized. Only the Republicans and Radical Republicans were permitted to vote or run for office. No former Confederate was permitted to vote for ten years, until 1875, when Reconstruction was ended. In Texas, the Democratic Party re-seized the reins of power in the very first election, in 1876. They promptly voted the hated Yankee occupier, Gen. E.J. Davis out of office, but he and his Radical Republicans refused. A three-day battle ensued on the grounds of the Capitol at Austin (the bullets are still embedded in many of the walls of the Capitol building.) The Republicans wired Washington D.C. for help, and troops, but Washington refused. Finally, Gen. E.J. Davis and his men surrendered, and were marched out of town at bayonet point by the Texas Militia. Crowds thronged the streets, many of the men wore their Confederate uniforms.

One of the first orders of business was suppressing the Ku Klux Klan. Wearing a mask in public is still illegal here. During the hours of darkness, it is OPEN SEASON on anybody attempting to harm you or your property. Everybody was forbidden to carry side arms, but rifles and shotguns were (and are) still legal to carry wherever you go in Texas except schools. The new Constitution placed enormous power in the hands of County Judges (essentially the "mayor" of a county,) and their legislative body, the County Commisioner's Court. This prevented "Yankee" influences from dominating small, sparsely populated counties in remote places. We still use that same Constitution in Texas today, but it has been amended over 350 times.

 

Governor Gen. E.J. Davis was the last Republican to serve as a Texas governor for 120 years. There was not another Republican governor until Governor Bill Clements in 1986. It was said, that when Governor Clements was elected in 1986, Texas "turned it's back on the Confederacy, and re-joined the Union." That was only sixteen years ago.

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well KaBar, I think you missed out on the broader topic of the confedrate flag but... as far as it goes... there are a couple historical issues you have going against you...

 

The Abolitionist movement started in the 1700's in New England but over the years it spread, haphazzardly as ideas are wont to do... by the 1820's there was enough tension between the abolistionists and anti-abolitionists, AND, enough states had weighed in that basically the US was in a stalemate, half were 'free' states and half were 'slave' states...

 

All of this was casual until Missouri gained enough territory to actually become a state, and no matter which way they sided it would throw the sweet sweet balance to the wind (but for the record they were going 'slave')... so, in a flurry of other activity, war reparations for Tejas, Maine becomes a state, seems like Kansas played a role (but that may have been Dred Scot a few years later, forgive my drunken memory...), and others a NEW balance was achieved, and it became Federal law in 1820 that no slaves should be owned past 36'30"N latitude... the Miserable (Missouri) Compromise is often referred to as the Rule of 36'30"N...

 

ANYWHO, 36'30" was struck down as unconstitutional in 1854 (see Kansas-Nebraska act), still the anti-abolitionist south and the abolitionist north were both FIRMLY established before Lincoln even stepped into the national arena...

 

AND... Jefferson Davis wasn't even the TRUE president of the Confederacy, ahem, Alexander Stephens, and then I'm pretty sure they tried to give it to some Georgian named Cobb (but it could have been Merriwether)

 

I'm sorry.. what are we arguing about again?

 

OH YEAH....

 

The Union - largely made up by Abolitionist states ("Free States")

Except Virginia who later joined the Confedracy

 

The Confederacy - ENTIRELY made up of "Slave states"

 

I find it mind numbing to argue the political differences (though many) between the northern Republican agenda and the Southern Federalist agenda, though some points should be blatantly obvious...

 

 

AND THEN... your narrative leads to events of the reconstruction but... I think this thread has meandered so far afield at this point that we should at least settle hash from before and including the War of Succession (which is the 'gentlemanly' name for it in Dixie) before we move on to the awful events of the reconstruction, which to a large extent can be attributed to personal greed (carpetbaggers and 'yankee trusts')...

 

 

But please, speak to the primary issue at hand as well. What does the 'symbol' represent to you and is it appropriate on the flagpole of a state legislature building?

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Originally posted by Smart

you idiot, a flag is not a 'flag'...

 

a flag, EVERY flag, is a visual embodiment of a movement or an idea.

 

I thought we stopped around here....:rolleyes:

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