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inshaz are you missing something??

 

when you take photo's of whole trains you tend not to get the whole thing in one shot

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Originally posted by inshAZ

something funny about this picture, why are there so many clocktowers in the background? and why does the grass in the foreground keep repeating itself.......:confused:

 

Because the photographer was standing still and the train was moving. ;)

 

BTW I'm in 2 minds about this, first I think what a mission then I think, the first and last carriages - what a waste of paint! Then I think what a mission then I think what a waste of paint... :crazy:

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Originally posted by inshAZ

something funny about this picture, why are there so many clocktowers in the background? and why does the grass in the foreground keep repeating itself.......:confused:

 

god you're stupid. :lol:

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Here in Norway, scrap trains and freights are almost disrespect to paint. There's no point, its way to easy and its fucking ugly.

 

You american's say you made graff, but did YOU make graff? Are you one of the old boys, the ones that ruled the train lines back in the 70'ties, and 80'ies? Are you one of the old stars? If not, then shut the fuck up, as after the trains died, so did most american graffiti. I mean, most of the "old boys" quitted, and went other ways.

I have a shitload of respeckt for the old NY train-bombers, they invented both style and trains. But the "new school" American writers mostly suck.

 

Oh, and if it's so hard to paint trains in NY and other places, why is that when european writers come, they burn your trains? Also, i read that in America, you don't have to think of most of the yard-workers, just the guards. I mean, what the fuck! If it had been that easy in Norway, i would be in the yard 24/7.

And if the yards are fuck, why not just do backjumps?

 

The old days are over (sadly). Europe has taken over graffiti, easy and simple. Show me some new wholetrains from America, and i mean TRAINS, not some ugly freights.

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i didnt bother to read all of this thread.. all i read were a couple angry euro posts that were anti american. nowi dont want to argue and i dont think either part of the world is better. graff is all about the individual. not your state or country. yes, it is true that graffiti started in the americas, yes it is true that there are probably more writers here also, and also yeah its true that europeans do hit alot more passenger trains than the us. and it is quite obvious that outside of trains, europeans dont have much on americans in terms of walls. you say wheres our whole trains and cars? we say to you where is your la river piece? wheres your planes, wheres your fucking barge boats. we hit just as big as you do, just because as its not in the same place doesnt mean its not as good. stick saber msk awr in europe and im sured hed put everyoine to shame. he puts alot of us people to shame also. theres obviously a large contrast in style between here and there. in europe yes.. everyone gets up everywhere. here, you have fewer writers that are kings, but they are alot better than the kings over there. the writers in europe that really put in the effort to be better at graff stand out, like daim, dare, and others. neither section of the world is better and you cant compare, lifestyles are completley different and echside gets their own respect.

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i really dont think one huge piece in the LA river is an excuse for not doing transit. im not into people hating on the US flat out...that sucks...not all of us are retarded and hate on europe..tons of us love and respect all the work that everyone in europe does. whoever is doing work, regardless of nationality, gets respect from me.

 

i think a big factor that no one ever discusses that explains a lot of the differences is that in europe, you all have a zillion magazines where trains get printed regularly and videos and what not. theres much less stigma about having your shit in magazines and what not. in the states, we cant really get away with publishing clean train work in mags like yall do. so, if everyone does shit for rep, at least in europe you know if you get night flicks, or even a shot in transit, even if it gets ragged the next day,those flix get out and into amgs and what not.

 

in the states, there is no outlet for that rep. in the old days in nyc, you painted a train and people saw it. now, there isnt any outlet for even the photo to get out (except online and even then americans just tend to be paranoid about putting anything out there b/c theres so few people doing them that it makes it easy for authorities to be like "lets get ___")

 

so its like a shitty cycle we are stuck in in america: once you dont have the 'rep' incentive, less kids do trains and get more into street spots. once the number of kids on steel dips below a critical mass, then it becomes easy for the cops or detectives to focus on the little handful of people who *do* do it. so, those few kids hafta be real careful and keep their flicks to themselves, so no one ever knows they are doing it, which = no rep. not many writers are interested in doing steel just for the flick in their own home...kids want the rep. and without that rep, people tend to be like "id rather do a street spot or a rooftop". at least if you hit the streets, you know its gonna get seen, not buffed, and the flicks are published online or in zines. think about it: name one american magazine that features clean trains. you cant cause it doesnt exist. there are only like 3 or 4 american grafifit zines at all, and those barely come out more than once every 2-3 months.

 

basically, just like the quality of paint europeans have, you guys over in europe dont understand how puritan and close minded america still is about stupid things like graffiti. shit, its still illegal for any american televsion show to curse or show bare breasts. we just have a somewhat more closeminded society when it comes to some things like this. there is NO WAY we will ever have a "montana writer team" and there will never be ads in fro spray paint featuring a graffiti wirter doing a piece. our paint companies STILL swear that their product is made strictly for the purpose of painting wicker chairs.. caps are pretty illegal to sell anywhere. some cites have banned spraypaitn sales all togehter. there are no "graffiti festivals" except for scribble and paint louis and both those events go thru hell trying to avoid being banned. people in america hate hate hate graffiti and there was never the semi-acceptance it gets in europe.

 

so, if you live in paris or london or berlin, you know "hey, if i go do some panels, itll get seen eventually by someone..." it may not run, yeah, but if you get flix, itll get seen, right? youre not doing panels and not taking flix, right? you wouldnt just go paint a train, not take a flick and have no one ever know you did it. well, thats what is like a lot of times here in the states: there is no outlet for the output. people DO do clean trains here, but theres no outlet for them. ask the clean train americans...they cant even show their shit online.

 

this also explains the whole "europeans go to nyc and do trains all the time!!" gripe....of course they do!! a: they do steel all the time in europe so they are much more in touch with the process than the new generation of americans and b: they get flicks and bring them home to publish in all the euro magazines and websites. c: they LEAVE nyc and dont have to worry about the heat that comes from doing them.

 

so, if i fly to paris tomorrow, and i do like 10 panels in a week or 2, i can jet back to the US and not worry one bit about the vandal squad or search warrants, or rival crews ratting me out or whatever. its that kind of a deal.

 

so, im not taking anything away from european writers....i love graff from anywhere...but maybe if yall understood the subltety of all these dynamics a little better, youd understand how the whole paradigm shifted over the last few decades as graffiti in americ shifted from a 'quality of life' offense in the 1980s to a felony crime in the 90s. american writers have the exact some ratio of tyos to kings as europeans...were all human, its gonna end up being the same....the only difference about trains has to do with american society and the legal trends that led up to everyone being pushed off trains and the legal restrictions on publishing any of them that *do* get done. if we had magazines that published clean trains that came out every month like europeans do, and there was no fear of getting you house raided for doing it, TRUST ME, kids would do steel as much as europeans do. no one in the US is a scaredy cat - we take ridiculous risks bombing, and given the way our country works with poverty and guns, we often face just as much (if not more) risk scaling barbed wire to creep up the side of peoples houses to do rooftops and whatnot. in other words, while cleantrains are dangerous with gaurds and shit in europe, its also a tad bit formulaic: you know how long you have for backjumps, you know the factoars and the risks, if you go enough times a week, youll pull a few off. but with streets in america, its just a different kind of risk. here, citizens are blood hungry, they love nothing more than calling you in on cellphones, getting you busted, you got trigger happy citizens, who have the legal freedom to shoot you in the face if you are climbing up their fireescape ladder, you have cops who have the freedom to stop and search your bag if your walking down the street shady-looking at 3am...or if you are the wrong race, etc,etc,etc.

 

my point being: theres a reason why trains have declined here, but dont mistkae that for americans lacking heart. we are cut from the stuff as any european. i dont think europe owes us any sort of respect for graff starting here (beyond respect for those old kings) but i also dont think us not doing steel is the basis for saying that one side of the pond is better than the other.

 

all that being said, that whole care posted up above by schnabel is amazing.

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yeh its good to see that there are some americans who actually arent too up their own arses to see what is actually going on. respect.

 

but...! dotn wanna cause a next argument im just gonna clear a couple thigns up

 

"no fear of getting you house raided for doing it"

 

house raids are standard if you get caught hittin trains.

 

also the cops are the same here as far as gettin searched goes...

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thanks cheerleader...

But I have some questions. To me it sounds like you believe that there is nowhere to publish current american transit....and if one does publish photos the authorities in (blankcity) will push harder to make a conviction.

 

The thing that I think you are missing is the fact that all train companies, transit authorities, police and the independent graffiti removal contractors make a record of the work they do.

On any average painted panel you are going to have at least one photo taken by the opposing team. (Possibly three depending on what groups become involved).

 

so if a writer in america gets a photo of a panel while it is in service (or anywhere besides where it was painted) why couldnt it be published? any Henry C could have released that shutter.

 

and if there is such a large source of graffiti media in europe why not send photos there.... a good metro panel is a good metro panel regardless of continent... this would also divert attention from local authorities who might read your Clouts your Vapours and your LSD but probably dont read XG, subwaynet, UP....etc.etc.(too many to name)

 

just a thought

props to your sports team for all the insight i agree with lots of what you said.

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Originally posted by socks

and if there is such a large source of graffiti media in europe why not send photos there.... a good metro panel is a good metro panel regardless of continent... this would also divert attention from local authorities who might read your Clouts your Vapours and your LSD but probably dont read XG, subwaynet, UP....etc.etc.(too many to name)

 

i think cope2 realised this a long time ago. he's got subways, streets and legal walls in everything: wanted, graphotism, XG, stylefile, brain damage etc etc.

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re: houses getting raided - you dont get your house raided *after* you get caught...you get your house raided if they *think* (and can get a warrant) you are doing trains. they use what they find in that raid to arrest you.

 

re: what socks said: good points man. heres what i think: shots in transit are diffuclt here..the only real way your gonna something is if they happen to miss it. i dont think this is cause american transit systems are tougher or anything, i just think its more like "whoa, what the fuck, pull that car out of service!" cause they get hit so rarely here, its like a big deal. whereas in europe, it gets done often enough everywhere that its not like a crazy rare event. so, from my limited experience, most flicks are gonna be night flicks in the yard or layup. however, even if you do get a shot in transit, you could 'claim' to have just taken the photo, like henry c style, sure, but thats gonna be you and your lawyer trying to convinve a judge that you just *happen* to like graffiti enough to have been there 12 hours later taking a photo of it.....like i said, since theres nothing on any trains here, you really cant proclaim to be like 'benching' subways - it will loook bad regardless if you have photos of graffiti on trains. its not an open and shut case, and im sure if you can get an ill lawyer, you could beat it, but most writers dont have the money to afford really good lawyers (often 200-300 US dollars per hour, with 2000 dollar retainer fees). so, its just kinda complex.

 

and as for amiling flix to the european mags, theres another american thing that differs from europeans: we are usually very much against mailing your own photos to magazines. its considered self promotion and its frowned upon. as dope as Cope2 is, people do ridicule his habit of promoting himself (book, video, mailing his own trains to every mag on earth, etc) many US writers, myself included, were raised to believe that your work should be put out in the public and if people wanna flick it or publish it, great. but mailing shit into mags distorts the lines....there are kids we call "stamp lickers" who paint like 20 freight trains a year but they mail EVERY last one to mags, get published, and then create the image that they are getting benched all the time. which is weak.

 

therefore, theres this tradition of not really mailing your own shit anywhere..the feeling is, if you do enough work on streets or on trains, objective 3rd parties will flick it and youll get the rep you deserve. like someone like revok from LA: he does the work, and people publish him regardless of whether they know him or are down with him..he just earns the press by working hard. on the other hand (i wont name names) you have american magazines that merely publish the 20 or so writers they know or from ther local city/crews, along with people like revok or cope2 or king157 or whoever. so, that gets frowned upon.

 

i have to confess, i dont really know how that dynamic plays out in europe, but the sense i get is that its OK to mail your own flicks to magaznes and stuff like that. am i wrong? im really not sure. but in europe, how do you feel about someone who paints 20 panelsa year but gets all 20 published in a mag, vs. someone who does 100 panels a year but only gets one or two in a mag?? who has really earned the rep?

 

is graff about how many people see it, no matter what the means to the end? i tend to think not, and i think theres a real measure of rep beyond just what gets published...and for me thats the streets. you cant fake a roof top. and fr8 trains in the US are really easy generally, and they more about a different, more patient form of graffiti....imagine if you had 1000 panels running, but over the entire continent of europe, and you were racing with other dudes trying to get as many as you can, mastering what goes to what region, on what types of cars and what not....its a lot different than subways/commuters, but it also has its own skill/talent and while its less dramatic, its more about patience and persistence...different version of a similar passion: the adrenaline rush verus the patient slow boil. and real fr8 heads in america will tell you you cant fake/manufacture that rep either....people send their shit into mags and get published, but the rel heads keep track of who *Really* gets benched in every region of the USA. if you are popping up in lots of mags but no ones ever benched you, it becomes immediately clear that you are a stamp licker and someone is mailing your photos to magazines, manufactuiring your rep.

 

SO, long story short, even the few americans that are getting flicks of clean trains have another level of built-in aversion to self publicizing their work...for lack of a better word, its considered "tacky" here...even the great cope2, as i said, gets criticized for it...people think its really tacky to make an entire movie about yourself. and i dont disagree really.

 

just to be clear again: im not dissing either world..just trying to shed some light on what i think contributes to the big gap in US/Euro graff culture. i really think it boils down to the fact that in europe, as much as the *doing* of graff is illegal and dangerous, for some reason the after product is OK to puvblish and spread around and be open about (mags, videos, festivals, specialized paint,etc) whereas in the states, *doing* graffiti is not the only illegal part.....publicizing it just as dangerous and frowned upon. no festivals, hardly any videos, defintiely no paint made for graffiti, etc,etc.

 

i think if you took an american and put him in europe, hed do trains just as much as yall do. and vice versa, if you take a european train writer and plop him in boston or nyc or philly or dc, he will be in jail after a few months of trying to do clean trains regularly. it is quite easy to come here, get over on trains, then leave and dissappear. but its like the old rule of "dont shit where you eat" for those of us who live here, we are gonna cut our careers short by doing cleans locally often. some ways around it have been rocking fake names or aliases, or travelling to other cities. and, there are lots of people doing just that. and they have photos of it all. but no where to show them. sucks, but, hey its what we have to deal with.

 

as a solution to this, i propose that any of you europeans invite me over to your house so i can paint lots of trains with you all. that would be pretty cope. i mean dope.

 

:p

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Originally posted by cheerleader

 

i have to confess, i dont really know how that dynamic plays out in europe, but the sense i get is that its OK to mail your own flicks to magaznes and stuff like that. am i wrong? im really not sure. but in europe, how do you feel about someone who paints 20 panelsa year but gets all 20 published in a mag, vs. someone who does 100 panels a year but only gets one or two in a mag?? who has really earned the rep?

 

 

put it this way, i could put together a freight magazine monthly if i sat at the lines and benched. if i sat in say, london victoria street station (only an example of a busy station for commuters and subways) it would take a long time to put out a mag of strictly commuters and subways caught on those lines.

 

basically, people will catch freights eventually, cleans, well, maybe. ive sat for hours on places like london (3 visits not one train seen in service) amsterdam central (2 trips seen one panel in service). thus, making it acceptable to send in a yard shot or the piece in traffic for the one line it makes. cause if you dont send it in, noone else can really. then again, there are a bunch of guys whom ive met personally and have hit a ton of trains regularly and get 0 play in the euro mags ive seen. who gets more respect? i dont know. i cant say. im only kind of a euro. youd better ask a real one yourself.

 

im not an expert, just kind of an observer giving a perspective.

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Originally posted by T.T Boy

put it this way, i could put together a freight magazine monthly if i sat at the lines and benched. if i sat in say, london victoria street station (only an example of a busy station for commuters and subways) it would take a long time to put out a mag of strictly commuters and subways caught on those lines.

 

basically, people will catch freights eventually, cleans, well, maybe. ive sat for hours on places like london (3 visits not one train seen in service) amsterdam central (2 trips seen one panel in service). thus, making it acceptable to send in a yard shot or the piece in traffic for the one line it makes. cause if you dont send it in, noone else can really. then again, there are a bunch of guys whom ive met personally and have hit a ton of trains regularly and get 0 play in the euro mags ive seen. who gets more respect? i dont know. i cant say. im only kind of a euro. youd better ask a real one yourself.

 

im not an expert, just kind of an observer giving a perspective.

TT, i can understand not seeing anything running in London, unless you get a tip off, or are REAL lucky. ( ive been going to London for years, and its only recently ive started seeing stuff running) But on 1 panel in 2 trips to Amsterdam....now thats unlucky fella! :eek:

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...and the first time i ever used the london tube i saw four panels in one day (and a LOT of bombing). my friend from north london has seen just two in a lifetime of using it. its definitely all down to luck.

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TT: yeah thats what i thought (i just didnt wanna say definitively since i dont know firsthand): no one catches shit in traffic really anywhere, so in europe (at least the flicks in mags i see) its usually night flix or flix taken the next morning or whatever and therefore its pretty clear that its not only OK to mail in flix, its expected. hence another big difference...in the US, there is no mag to really send flix to and theres the whole etiquette against mailing flicks, and the whole legal issue of the heat those published flicks will bring you.

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yeah i was pretty unlucky in amsterdam. but now its so fucked in holland it seems noone is painting, or noone wants to paint anymore.

or the guys who are painting are the ones who owe so much in fines they dont give a fuck anymore and just keep bombing. i dunno, so many people have had amazing luck in holland painting. i got unlucky there twice. but super ultra hardcoregermany was always nice to me. oh, and you can still catch panels on the rome subway like it was 1978. but its mostly garbage. cheerleader you must be able to vouch for that?

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Originally posted by T.T Boy

yeah i was pretty unlucky in amsterdam. but now its so fucked in holland it seems noone is painting, or noone wants to paint anymore.

or the guys who are painting are the ones who owe so much in fines they dont give a fuck anymore and just keep bombing. i dunno, so many people have had amazing luck in holland painting. i got unlucky there twice. but super ultra hardcoregermany was always nice to me. oh, and you can still catch panels on the rome subway like it was 1978. but its mostly garbage. cheerleader you must be able to vouch for that?

Best wekend i had, which was a serious trainspot wekend, ended up with 40 different peices (No lie!) From panels, to end to ends....Knackered from running around getting photos..and the last thing i saw that i missed was a e-2-e with taylor and friends....damn! :crazy:

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