Cracked Ass Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 One of the rare times I'm ashamed to be an American is when I think about our bizarre, draconian, hypocritical, surrealist drug war. I'm not sure there is a bigger American government folly than its drug policy. It ensures high crime rates, fills prisons with ordinary people whose personal habits have been criminalized, and makes us look like two-faced assholes around the world. (Particularly when the top man in charge is an ex-coke user.) The USA drug demand is about the highest in the world, geographically speaking. Yet there we are in South America running missions to defoliate fields and harass drug lords, who are only filling the market demand for these substances. The market exists BECAUSE drugs are illegal. That means risk is involved at every level from production to distribution, so the prices are high. Since the financial rewards of drug dealing are so high, there will always be people willing to risk any degree of lawbreaking to get a cut of those funds. If the risk goes up, so do the prices, and in turn the rewards and therefore the incentives. So there is no anti-drug policy that can ever work in the real world. What harm do drugs cause EXTRINSIC of the culture of crime that operates around them due to their illegality? Well, they are a health hazard. Overdoses of harder drugs can be fatal. Chronic use of various drugs increases incidence of depression, cancer, and a slew of medical problems. Lives that are not lost outright can be wasted or ruined by addiction. Two points: One, those problems already exist despite the illegality of drugs. Two, those problems already exist (at a higher incidence than that for all illegal drug users combined) for users of alcohol, which is regulated but not prohibited. The solution is obvious: LEGALIZE DRUGS, at least to the degree currently permitted for alcohol use. THE PROS OF LEGALIZATION. -Crimes associated with drug use decline (robbing to support a habit). -Crimes associated with drug dealing decline (murder, robbery). -Enormous financial savings are realized by the government, which no longer has to fund foolish paramilitary missions in drug-producing countries, expensive border and domestic interdiction operations, etc. Several agencies could be outright disbanded, and the fewer responsibilities remaining could be delegated to a smaller number of existing agencies. -Enormous financial savings are realized at the federal, state, and municipal level, since almost two-thirds of the prison population can be released. (That's the percentage of inmates currently incarcerated for drug crimes.) -US farmers can again grow hemp, an enormously useful crop in capacities unrelated to marijuana production: textiles, fiber technology, as an alternative energy resource, etc. These uses are well documented elsewhere; an internet search for pro-hemp sites can provide greater detail on the usefulness of hemp. (Some of the Founding Fathers farmed hemp.) -The massive price drop in drugs will put many foreign cartels out of business, with the potential to improve government stability in former drug producing countries, and repair the US image in countries where our drug war policy shows us to be hypocrites. -At home, the government will repair its image with its own people, particularly younger generations, for having the integrity and intelligence to abandon ludicrously expensive and ineffectual policies which foster disrespect, distrust, fear and anger toward the government. -The financial savings of legalization will be so enormous that there will be more than enough money to allocate toward assisting with any unforeseen problems of legalization. For example, the savings would easily fund the construction and staffing of top-notch drug rehab centers in every major city for starters, and plenty more could be allocated for REALISTIC, TRUTHFUL drug education in schools nationwide. -If the government is still not happy with the amount of money saved, it can always make more by regulating and taxing various substances, though I don't advocate this. THE "PHANTOM" CON OF LEGALIZATION Opponents of legalization usually raise this fear right away: legalization will create a massive, rampant epidemic of drug use in the population, especially youth. This can't happen. Drugs are already so widely and readily available that anyone who wants to try them can obtain them - indeed, they already have. The USAGE epidemic is already about as bad as it would get - which is a testament to the failure of the current policies. Any threat of an increase in drug use can be combatted much more cost-effectively via funding for drug education and rehab centers. Nobody wants to see MORE people using drugs. That is not the goal of legalization, nor would it be its effect. The current policy is a miserable and expensive failure, and should be replaced. Even if every dollar saved during legalization had to go to help alleviate new problems caused by legalization, the approach (more education and treatment, less prisoners and crime) would be far more humane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
some pittsburgh flavor Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 just wait till i am president of the universe..... the day will come.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 I'm out the door at the moment, but I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY AGREE! I would like to point out that in countries where legalization has been implemented, the rise in drug use was marginal in the beginning and followed by a decline in ALL cases... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_As_In_Bot Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 deja vu. eatmoreglue and I went over almost all the same things in thread made long ago, talking about how legalization could potentially stimulate the economy. The war on drugs is definitley a joke. But because politicians years ago made marijuana illegal its worth more to the united states government then ever, being illegal. Its an asset to them. I mean once its legalized, there will be so much more of it at a lower price. Heres an interesting comparison: DeBeers (the diamond company) within I think the last 10 years or something found something good in the Russian Federation. Diamonds, grips of diamonds. So they bought all this shit out and now have complete control. They chose to do nothing with it, I mean why should they tell the world about all these diamonds? It would only lessen the value of their product. We all know how badly coporate entities overshadow politics, do you think any corporate-government would ever be like: Okay lets make it legal, lessen the value, increase the supply and lose money? its still something to fight for though, as soon as enough people open their minds.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cracked Ass Posted March 31, 2002 Author Share Posted March 31, 2002 Of course. So the government's surreal stance that the drug war is the way to go can be interpreted 2 ways: one, as sheerest incompetence; or two, having the ulterior motives of profit, keeping the public scared and oppressed, etc. They are either pathetically stupid, or sinisterly smart and corrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_As_In_Bot Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 its a little from column A, and a lot from column B, cracked.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REGULATOR Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 stupid 60 year old white politicians..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23578 Posted March 31, 2002 Share Posted March 31, 2002 Originally posted by REGULATOR stupid 60 year old white politicians..... When you are told what to do everyday for sixty years you start echoing it. There are facets of our government and our society which would no longer exist if the drug war was ended. That's scary for people. It's time for most of them to start thinking for themselves for once. What If? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poop Man Bob Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Originally posted by Cracked Ass Several agencies could be outright disbanded, and the fewer responsibilities remaining could be delegated to a smaller number of existing agencies. First off, I largely agree with what you said. The drug war has proven to be ineffectual at what it's stated purpose is - to eliminate drug use in the US. The main problem I see with your statements is what I quoted above. Eliminating bureaucratic agencies at a national level is ALWAYS a difficult task to achieve ... but you may be asking the impossible when you say that several agencies could be completely disbanded. When it comes down to it, the people with positions within the agencies, those responsible for answering to them, and the politicians that look good in supporting them will fight to the death for the survival of their respective agencies - especially the big ones. Often times, as you said, agencies can redirect their focus ... perhaps to the rehabilitation of drug use rather than its outright elimination. This, however, would require a complete restructuring of the said agencies - another thing they will predictably resist. Unfortunately, I see it as a matter of jobs. As long as the US employs a hell of a lot of people dedicated to eliminating drug use, programs supporting just that will continue to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graffsurgeon Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 infrared drug drone flys over southern maine every other night around 9 through 11 pm. i saw it from the bottom last night..it was like rectangular sphere shape..shit was fucked up. like 200 feet up in the sky. whats going on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest beard Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Originally posted by graffsurgeon ..it was like rectangular sphere shape.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graffsurgeon Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Originally posted by beard yeah..something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ted Wakowski Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 I think one of the main problems might lead back to prison industry lobbyists and campaign contributors. Illegal drugs have become the bread and butter of their business. There's also the question of what effect domestic legalization of all drugs would have globally, considering other countries who's policies remain the same. Not that our gov't doesn't already have its hands dirty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Priest Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 I didnt bother reading anything posted... but on th same topic of U.S. policies did any one see that issue of maxim a while back (they did this in bizarre also) where they linked Racial tension and Sexual "deviance" ( freud had this on lock a while a go ) to drug contrabans? heres a direct quote wich was cosiderd substantial cause for review by congress:" cocaine is often the direct incentive of rape by the negroes" hm..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeroshoes Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Originally posted by cmeup legalization might be cool at first... but i think that could bring on some major problems as well... Mr. Ass already went over this... Originally posted by Cracked Ass THE "PHANTOM" CON OF LEGALIZATION Opponents of legalization usually raise this fear right away: legalization will create a massive, rampant epidemic of drug use in the population, especially youth. This can't happen. Drugs are already so widely and readily available that anyone who wants to try them can obtain them - indeed, they already have. The USAGE epidemic is already about as bad as it would get - which is a testament to the failure of the current policies. Any threat of an increase in drug use can be combatted much more cost-effectively via funding for drug education and rehab centers. Nobody wants to see MORE people using drugs. That is not the goal of legalization, nor would it be its effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Originally posted by REGULATOR stupid 60 year old white politicians..... well, those 60 year old politicians are basically the proto-hippies, they were 20 in '62 and 30 in '72, seems like a pretty partying decade, unfortunately, alot of those kids sucked though, but, the potential is growing Originally posted by High Priest heres a direct quote wich was cosiderd substantial cause for review by congress:" cocaine is often the direct incentive of rape by the negroes" uh, you might be thinking of a much touted quote from the hearings that led to the prohibition of marijuana... a campaign largely funded by Dow chemical... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Dazzle Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Did you know the award winning movie Traffic was actually a complete copy of the British film Traffik, which profiles the heroin trade from Turkey to the UK. But did they give credit to that? No. Think about it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cracked Ass Posted April 1, 2002 Author Share Posted April 1, 2002 Bumped for anyone who cares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven six two Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 legalizing drugs isn't gonna make anything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NATO Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Originally posted by Cracked Ass THE PROS OF LEGALIZATION. -Crimes associated with drug use decline (robbing to support a habit). call me stupid but does changing who 'deals the drugs stop addicts needing to support their habit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blahblahblah Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 if it were ever to happen, it would be interesting to see two-thirds of the prison population dumped back onto the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ted Wakowski Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Originally posted by seven six two legalizing drugs isn't gonna make anything better. Neither will unsupported opinions. I've thought about this topic a few times and will definitely chat about it. Another good question facing all-out legalization of drugs is "who would want to sell them?" With alcohol and tobacco -- 2 big ones that are already legal -- it takes so much of the product, such a long time, or a combination of both to kill you that the negative results don't slap the company who produces them in the face immediately -- even in the instance of drunk-driving deaths the whole thing has such an indirect association with the actual product and the point of purchase that people don't directly relate the two. Picture some guy picking up a bag of coke from a store, doing a couple lines out in his car and dying before he ever gets the key in the ignition. Who's gonna jump up to put their logo on that? Most of the corporations who might be down to sell hard drugs would have a hard a time maintaining an image in the marketplace with costumers dropping dead left and right, which is an undeniable effect of certain hard drugs, so who's really going to sell them? You'd think that, in our capitalist society, the "kingpins" and street pushers would not be permitted to sell something with such a huge potential for profit attached. And if the gov't tried to make drugs available through pharmaceutical outlets or specialty organizations you'd be faced with thirsty addicts and criminal minded crooks presenting the same problems of fraud, theft, and violence that already plague the illegal drug trade, which would ultimately lead to more money being spent on high security to keep drug-sale operations safe. Maybe it wouldn't work that way, maybe people would eventually realize that your chances of dying from certain drugs are always going to be extremely high and the stigma behind who's selling them would ultimately lift itself away. I haven't heard of many gun companies blamed for people shooting themselves in the head. I guess for now I'll take the optimistic approach and agree with Cracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blahblahblah Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Re: Re: The US Government's Drug War Originally posted by NATO call me stupid but does changing who 'deals the drugs stop addicts needing to support their habit? yeah that's another thing. Just because they are no longer illegal doesn't mean the "users" will still have enough money to support their habits and not need to use force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graffsurgeon Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 either way i'll be getting to an altered state..if it's legal..thats cool..if its illegal..ill still be doing it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eros Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 I agree. I sometimes battle with myself on whether or not hard drugs like heroin and crack should be legalized and sold in stores the way alcohol is, or if they should be distributed by the govt. to registered addicts. One reason why drugs haven't been legalized yet is that there is a fairly large population in the US that relies on the drug trade for their income. These people are not dealers and smugglers but govt. employees. There are thousands of of jobs that would be lost INITIALLY if drugs were to be legalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_El Mamerro Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Originally posted by Cracked Ass THE "PHANTOM" CON OF LEGALIZATION Opponents of legalization usually raise this fear right away: legalization will create a massive, rampant epidemic of drug use in the population, especially youth. This can't happen. Drugs are already so widely and readily available that anyone who wants to try them can obtain them - indeed, they already have. The USAGE epidemic is already about as bad as it would get - which is a testament to the failure of the current policies. Any threat of an increase in drug use can be combatted much more cost-effectively via funding for drug education and rehab centers. Nobody wants to see MORE people using drugs. That is not the goal of legalization, nor would it be its effect. Although I wholeheartedly agree with some sort of legalization measures for drugs (for the reasons posted), I don't know if this argument convinces me about the cons not being true. If drugs are made legal on the same level as tobacco and alcohol, then they will be just as available as well. Yes, they are widely obtainable right now, but legalization will bring availability up a significant notch, so that those who didn't buy them because of their price or the risk involved, will now be able to get them safely and cheaply. I think those (price and risk) are two huge factors regarding the individual's decision to not buy drugs. Legalization can get rid of those barriers a little too easily, and drug use can become a lot more widespread. Maybe I'm speaking from an overly personal point of view... I personally don't buy drugs because A) I don't want to be caught with them and sent to jail for such a dumb reason, and B) they're too fucking expensive for me to be wasting my money on them. If these two things weren't hindering me, I would have no problem whatsoever buying a sack of coke on the gas station and trying it out. Sure, I've heard a lot of horror stories about it, but I also know a shitload of people who have done it or still do it with no problems whatsoever. On the other hand, I've been offered it for free many times, but I always decline, mostly because of the criminal stigma involved. I honestly don't want to see a society where people do hard drugs on the same level as they drink and smoke nowadays, because their legal status deems them more "normal". Second, tobacco-and-alcohol education programs are a freaking joke, and I don't believe any amount of money will make them any better. You just can't convince a kid who really wants to get high.. Legalize drugs, but don't LEGALIZE them. I dunno, I'm rambling. Beer, El Mamerro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ted Wakowski Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Yeah, "price and risk" hold weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Tesseract Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 I agree with El Beererro, especially on the reasons given for not messing with. The barrier is that we examine the matter under the circumstances that exist now for us...a quick look at holands records of drug users and drug usage could be enlightening. Anyway, from personal experience i can say this, My country has no laws for drinking, except when driving involved. That means that a 7 year old kid can go and buy a beer...i'm 23 now, and i started drinking at 19...so did almost everyone i know, alcohol never seemed really 'fun' just because it was so easy, Me and my friends started smoking marijuana at 16 mostly for the fun of it...anyway to stay on topic, here we DONT have alcoholics...of course there are a few but the percentage is close to nothing. I have the feeling that being free to drink creates a certain 'way' to drink, doing things 'illegaly' is related with a whole culture that can make you stick with things for all the wrong reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Are2 Posted April 1, 2002 Share Posted April 1, 2002 Originally posted by Tesseract doing things 'illegaly' is related with a whole culture that can make you stick with things for all the wrong reasons. absolutely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cracked Ass Posted April 2, 2002 Author Share Posted April 2, 2002 Re: Re: The US Government's Drug War Originally posted by NATO call me stupid but does changing who 'deals the drugs stop addicts needing to support their habit? I won't call you stupid...but you do seem to be foggy on some basic capitalism principles. If drugs are legalized, the risk associated with producing and distributing them (getting arrested or robbed for the goods) vanishes. That means the price goes down...WAY down. A habit becomes much more affordable, so you don't have to rob as many stores. (I didn't say street crime would disappear, just drop drastically.) The question of who sells the drugs is an interesting one, although not really part of my original point. My point is that legalization is a much better alternative to what the US is doing now: less expensive, more intelligent, more humane. There is no "solution" to the human tendency to abuse mood-altering substances - just far more constructive approaches. Getting back to the new dealers after legalization: Drug use, especially harder stuff, will always retain a certain stigma as far as public acceptability, and its severity will vary by region. So the likely scenario is that places like opium dens would pop up in red-light districts, under the same sort of scrutiny as bars and liquor stores for stuff like selling to minors. Community backlash in smaller towns makes suburban and rural distribution a question mark. As Tesseract suggested, looking at countries that have legalized would give us guideposts. .."Second, tobacco-and-alcohol education programs are a freaking joke, and I don't believe any amount of money will make them any better. You just can't convince a kid who really wants to get high.. ". They're a joke because they are conducted in a sick harmony with the current ineffectual policies. The government needs to STOP UNDERESTIMATING KIDS, and TELL THEM THE TRUTH, instead of making threats coupled with morality lectures which drive kids in the opposite direction. It is primarily the TONE of current attempts to educate kids about drugs that alienates them. They don't want condescension from authority figures, at an age when rebellion is a priority. They don't want warnings that sound like threats ("This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs, any questions?"). And there is no better recipe for creating curiosity in kids as telling them "No" without telling them why. I think kids should learn a great deal about drugs at an early age, in frank, no-holds-barred discussions with the morality angle absent. Here is what drugs do to you - short-term pleasure. Hangover, withdrawal. The desire to do more. Medical problems users can expect - NOT as a scare tactic, just the factual information. Then let the kids decide. If they feel respected by the people giving them the straight information, they are more likely to choose wisely. Short of telling kids "drugs are cool" and handing out coke and bennies with school lunches, we CAN'T DO ANY WORSE than we do now with our destructive, hypocritical, and senseless drug policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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