fermentor666 Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 Actually, he's right about the original cultural designation of "Palestine", it referred to everyone who lived in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 palstinian muslims are not arabs.. they are all semites but not specifically arabs... see my above post^^^ the main issue really is two groups of foreigners (or three) trying to control the land: Arab muslims, and caucasian whites jews (mostly from Russia, thus slavs) first you said "Arab muslims" I assumed you were talking about the palestinain Arabs then you said.. "palstinian muslims are not arabs.. they are all semites but not specifically arabs... see my above post^^^" I know many palestianian muslims and they are all Arab, trust me. palastinians refers to any body who lives in palastine, whether they be jews, muslims or christians... its a geographic designation...this is not a islam vs. jewish issue... current reaserach is showing taht all palstinian people are ethnically the same people, some just have diffrent religions... It is an Islam vs. jewish issue. It just depends on who you are. Some people are very religious, some people are fanatically religious and some people are secular. It depends on who you are if youre trying to gauge what the issue is. To a palestinain christian, no it's not an Islamic vs. Jewish issue, it's a land issue, but to a devout muslim or Jew it is an issue of Holy land also, not just an issue of the jews bulldozing palestinians houses or a palestinian walking onto a bus with a bomb vest. It's almost like a Gang war at this point, It's been war for so long there, people just grow up fighting from childhood. Allahu Akbar...May Allah guide the Jews. It's a trip to see the Jews at the wailing wall, and theyre so close to the 3rd most holiest mosque in the world where prayers are multiplied in rewards. If only they would let go of the traditions of the rabbis and follow the Torah. They would realize that Muhammad is the last and final prophet of Allah and accept him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 No. 3674 - Narrated Anas: When the news of the arrival of the Prophet at Medina reached 'Abdullah bin Salam (one of the learned Jews), he went to him to ask him about certain things, He said, "I am going to ask you about three things which only a Prophet can answer: What is the first sign of The Hour? What is the first food which the people of Paradise will eat? Why does a child attract the similarity to his father or to his mother?" The Prophet replied, "Gabriel has just now informed me of that." ibn salam said, "He (i.e. Gabriel) is the enemy of the Jews amongst the angels. The Prophet said, "As for the first sign of The Hour, it will be a fire that will collect the people from the East to the West. As for the first meal which the people of Paradise will eat, it will be the caudate (extra) lobe of the fish-liver. As for the child, if the man's discharge proceeds the woman's discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman's discharge proceeds the man's, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman." On this, 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, and that you are the Apostle of Allah." and added, "O Allah's Apostle! Jews invent such lies as make one astonished, so please ask them about me before they know about my conversion to I slam . " The Jews came, and the Prophet said, "What kind of man is 'Abdullah bin Salam among you?" They replied, "The best of us and the son of the best of us and the most superior among us, and the son of the most superior among us. "The Prophet said, "What would you think if 'Abdullah bin Salam should embrace Islam?" They said, "May Allah protect him from that." The Prophet repeated his question and they gave the same answer. Then 'Abdullah came out to them and said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah!" On this, the Jews said, "He is the most wicked among us and the son of the most wicked among us." So they degraded him. On this, he (i.e. 'Abdullah bin Salam) said, "It is this that I was afraid of, O Allah's Apostle sahih al Bukhari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 If only you realised that Muhammad was a false prophet then you'd stop spewing this anti-jewish bullshit. The rabbi's are the torah she balal peh- the oral law. A key part of the torah. One man saw an angel and wrote the koran even though he was illiterate and he's believed? I just cant understand. You accept the torah but muhammed repeatedly goes against it. That doesnt even make sense. 6 million people heard G-d at sinai. It's hard to make six million people go along with a sham like that. I dont like doing this but your insolence left me with little other choice. Your a robot. Your religion is "Do without question and you will be saved". Doesn't that scare you? Do you ever question what you do or say, or do you always walk in the way of islam? Do the needs of others, not your family, play into your daily life? Why are you so ignorant to believe that one religion is the way for all, even when your religion accepts all other religions that came before islam as acceptable? Jew vs. Muslims? hmph...more like apprehension vs. blind hatred. I dont care what you believe but dont prosolitize at me or i'll rip your religion apart...but i doubt you'd listen. Thats one thing Christianity and Islam never caught on to. Conversion is only for those who truly want it. A forced/coerced conversion is not a conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CACashRefund Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 Muhammad was a false prophet that offends even me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 Its ment to offend. I want him to know what it feels like to call anothers religion false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CACashRefund Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 touche' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 the last three posts are awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 If only you realised that Muhammad was a false prophet then you'd stop spewing this anti-jewish bullshit. . I already showed you where he's in your book, but your people won't accept him because he's not a Jew and you call me a blind follower. The rabbi's are the torah she balal peh- the oral law. A key part of the torah. the rabbi's were not given the Torah, Moses was so, "woe to those rabbis who cahnge the books with their own hands" One man saw an angel and wrote the koran even though he was illiterate and he's believed? I just cant understand. You accept the torah but muhammed repeatedly goes against it. That doesnt even make sense. . he didn't write the quran, it was revealed to him, he memorised it and he recited it. He was illiterate remember? How could he have written the Quran? We accept the torah as it was revealed to Moses (not after the changes, deletions and additions the rabbis made). Now do you inderstand? 6 million people heard G-d at sinai. It's hard to make six million people go along with a sham like that. . 6 million people heard God? whoah? and they still worshipped the calf? No wonder Allah cursed the Jews. Your a robot. . Nanoo-nanoo.....Danger Will Robinson, Danger. Your religion is "Do without question and you will be saved". Doesn't that scare you? Do you ever question what you do or say, or do you always walk in the way of islam? Do the needs of others, not your family, play into your daily life? . I wish I was good enough to "always walk in the way of Islam" If I did, I'd be a much better person , even by your standards or anyone elses. If you want to see the most exalted of character , read about the prophet Muhammad. Why are you so ignorant to believe that one religion is the way for all, even when your religion accepts all other religions that came before islam as acceptable? . because every religion can't be right, otherwise they'd all be saying the same thing. Every religion says God is something different. I never said that the religions that came before Islam are acceptable (Judaism and christianity) What I did say is that Jesus and Moses were acceptable prophets of God and whoever followed them (in their time) were beleivers. Now, in this time , the only religion that is acceptable to God is Islam because Islam is the last message for all mankind whereas Moses's message was for the children of Isreal only and it has been abrogated by Islam in this time since the coming of Muhammad. I dont care what you believe but dont prosolitize at me or i'll rip your religion apart...but i doubt you'd listen. Thats one thing Christianity and Islam never caught on to. Conversion is only for those who truly want it. A forced/coerced conversion is not a conversion. I don't think you could rip apart my religion. except with lies your rabbis told you, so go ahead and rip, I'll set you straight and maybe we can all learn something. btw, Islam says there is no compulsion in religion, so I don't know where you get this Idea that muslims force people to be muslim. It's not true. You can't force someone to beleive. And from what I understand about Judaism is that nobody can truly convert to Judaism because you have to be born a jew (at least from your mothers side) so either youre born "a chosen jew" or your not. Sounds like racism to me. Well, I guess the secularist jews allow conversions now for good PR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 i think 12oz may see its first holy war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CACashRefund Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 well, i just consulted MY local religious leader and told me both of your religions are false good try guys scientology will lead into the 21st century and beyond the game is ours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the.crooked Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 elron in '08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 I already showed you where he's in your book' date=' but your people won't accept him because he's not a Jew and you call me a blind follower.[/quote'] I already proved to you its talking about Yihoshua aka Joshua. Read up a bit he's pretty famous. the rabbi's were not given the Torah, Moses was so, "woe to those rabbis who cahnge the books with their own hands" First off the rabbi's have not changed the torah. Second it is their responciblity to guide the people. Third did muhammed not change the torah? Woe unto him. he didn't write the quran, it was revealed to him, he memorised it and he recited it. He was illiterate remember? How could he have written the Quran? We accept the torah as it was revealed to Moses (not after the changes, deletions and additions the rabbis made). Now do you inderstand? How can you trust one man to tell the truth. I can make up a long story about an angel too and even base it on one of the oldest religions which i happened to study, just like muhammed. If you accept the torah then where is naviim or kituvim? Its part if the tanach also or does that not fit into your skeem. 6 million people heard God? whoah? and they still worshipped the calf? No wonder Allah cursed the Jews. First off they didnt worship the calf, they made it into a prophet like moshe. Second not all six million partisipated in the act and those who did died. Read up. Nanoo-nanoo.....Danger Will Robinson, Danger. Doesnt Islam mean submission? Sounds robotic to me. If you want to see the most exalted of character , read about the prophet Muhammad. This is a trend that really bothers me. Religious leaders being "perfect" even the greastest prophet to ever live, Moshe our teacher, made mistakes. because every religion can't be right, otherwise they'd all be saying the same thing. Every religion says God is something different. But they all say there is G-d, right? I never said that the religions that came before Islam are acceptable (Judaism and christianity) What I did say is that Jesus and Moses were acceptable prophets of God and whoever followed them (in their time) were beleivers. Now, in this time , the only religion that is acceptable to God is Islam because Islam is the last message for all mankind whereas Moses's message was for the children of Isreal only and it has been abrogated by Islam in this time since the coming of Muhammad. You may have not told me but I heard it elsewhere fancy that, me knowing something... http://www.wamu.org/audio/dr/06/04/r1060421-10245.asx listen to this program. Proffessor Nsar says that "all the people of the book are required by islam to be protected" Not to mention Immam Hendi says that the Koran explicitly states that everyone has the right to choose thier own faith. Not that islam is the only way. I don't think you could rip apart my religion. except with lies your rabbis told you, so go ahead and rip, I'll set you straight and maybe we can all learn something. "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor shall you subtract from it; you must keep the commandments of God your Lord, which I command you" (Deut. 4:2). btw, Islam says there is no compulsion in religion, so I don't know where you get this Idea that muslims force people to be muslim. It's not true. You can't force someone to beleive. Regardless of what the Koran says historicly, Muslims have been doing it for years. And from what I understand about Judaism is that nobody can truly convert to Judaism because you have to be born a jew (at least from your mothers side) so either youre born "a chosen jew" or your not. Sounds like racism to me. Well, I guess the secularist jews allow conversions now for good PR. Nope. Anyone can convert to Judaism, except for a midyani male, but since we do know who they are anymore we accept all, its just hard because we dont want people who arent commited. PR...pffft...as if. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Pubes Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 hey mar, obviously you're incredibly biased on this subject, to the point you don't even believe there is an occupation(a very convenient tactic, since nullifying the idea there is an occupation takes the steam out of any opposing viewpoint). now i think you said something about 'facts'... well if i had a few days to compile an unfuckwithable timeline based on human rights reports, official documents, local media etcetry, that would be great, but i don't, and to be honest i doubt you're the type to be converted..but just for the sake of further discussion: anybody who thinks suicide bombers are justified in their actions are lunatics..agreed? so why is this same logic not applied to israel's actions(you know, apache gunships firing missiles at apartment complexes and other lovely shit)? and i beg you, please try not to argue that it is 'defense'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 anybody who thinks suicide bombers are justified in their actions are lunatics..agreed? so why is this same logic not applied to israel's actions(you know' date=' apache gunships firing missiles at apartment complexes and other lovely shit)? and i beg you, [i']please[/i] try not to argue that it is 'defense'. easy, because they are attacking militants not civillians. And bring on the argument. For some reason I dont get tired of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Pubes Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 i don't expect you to get tired of thinking you're the historical wizard of this subject. here's a quickie: the lopsided casualty figures....uhh......can you explain to me how human rights watch flubbed their figures when they reported that since sept 2000 israel has killed nearly 3000 palestinians, of which more than 600 were children? to be fair though, the palestinians in the same period killed nearly 900 israeli's and that "most of those killed on both sides were civilians".. i guess they are all militants though, huh..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Pubes Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 another quickie while i have a sec... this assertion there is no occupation... israel imposes it's will on practically every aspect of the palestinians life.. for instance, israel maintains effective control over gaza by regulating movement in and out of the strip as well as the airspace, sea space, public utilities and population registry... they also happen to control freedom of movement, sometimes severely, in the west bank and east jerusalem which contributes quite nicely to fun stuff like unemployment, food insecurity, pretty dire poverty and access to basic services like health care and education. having one of the most powerful militaries in the region controlling the territory...nope, that doesn't mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 well its kinda hard to get accurate figures on palestinian deaths because they are known for inflating them. Can you get all the names of those killed? Because i can. As you may well know palestinians enlist the help of young children in thier terrorist efforts, so its inevitable that some would be killed. As always, sadly, their are casulaties of war. You ever see tears of the sun or black hawk down? similar to that. This is all stuff i've covered go back and read what ive written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 another quickie while i have a sec... this assertion there is no occupation... israel imposes it's will on practically every aspect of the palestinians life.. for instance, israel maintains effective control over gaza by regulating movement in and out of the strip as well as the airspace, sea space, public utilities and population registry... they also happen to control freedom of movement, sometimes severely, in the west bank and east jerusalem which contributes quite nicely to fun stuff like unemployment, food insecurity, pretty dire poverty and access to basic services like health care and education. having one of the most powerful militaries in the region controlling the territory...nope, that doesn't mean anything. they own the land they make the rules. Its a war you cant expect it to be all chill, "yeh do whatever..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Pubes Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 ah, there we have it folks. not exactly the factual denial i had hoped for... but yea, pretty enlightening where you're coming from there mar... in a nutshell: everything is justified if you think you own the land...even killing children! wow dude, you can get names?! well since you said you can and you never get tired of this, you do that..get at me with this list of names will ya? and make sure you append the post with your sources. and while you're at it, get at me with some facts about how many 'children' have infiltrated israel and blown people up. and be sure to append that post with sources as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 what?!? Im in deniel? your the one spewing psudo-intellectual crap at me. All your doing is trying to debase my arguments by calling me names instead of giving me facts. And if a child is aiming an rpg at your tank what are you going to do? sit there? please. In 2005 alone 2990 attacks where launched against israeli targets 337 of those where with kasam rockets. http://www.onefamilyfund.org/ go to terror attacks and then terrorism today. there should be a list of each attack and person killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Pubes Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 this is pathetic. i've popped in here for about a maximum of 30 minutes, threw some stuff out there that was contradictory to your opinion, and now i'm "spewing pseudo-intellectual crap". wow. i called you names huh? where did i do that? all i'm doing is questioning your high ground tootin' ass. your argument isn't very solid my man, whether i come with facts or not. and dude, if you want to get into fact checking and sources, gimme something that doesn't have 'i ball snuggle israel' all over it. from your 'source': "OneFamily provides the family network for world Jewry to express and actuate their natural sense of brotherhood by facilitating direct contact, relationships, and interaction between survivors and world Jewry as individuals, communities, and organizations." good stuff, but hardly a real source worth anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 I you want to have a civil and openminded argument I will listen to you. But I will do on one condition: You provide factual evidence to support your claims. I will do the same. I promise I will be openminded if you will too. Let see if we can get somewhere, both of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Pubes Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 i provided you with facts, you just don't like them(want the link?). and i'm all for some discussion dude, but don't give me 'conditions' for such and imply that i'm calling you names when i haven't done anything of the sort. as for facts, i'm down, but it's a 2 way street. and not to sound like a dickhead, but i don't think i need them, as your posts are really enlightening to your overall attitude and opinions on the issue. your firm assertion there is 'no occupation' is really something else man...justified or not, there is no doubt an ongoing occupation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Pubes Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 so now we've got that cleared up, i'd like you to address post 256 that was in response to your asserting that israel only attacks civilians. also please address post 257 where i provided an extremely basic fact in response to your claim 'there is no occupation'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Pubes Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 *since i can't edit my post for some reason, above it should say "only attacks militants", not civilians. my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 I think mar and dawood are the same person who is having a socratic conversation with two sides of the same coin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man with the Answers Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 the main issue really is two groups of foreigners (or three) trying to control the land: Arab muslims' date=' and caucasian whites jews (mostly from Russia, thus slavs)[/quote'] first you said "Arab muslims" I assumed you were talking about the palestinain Arabs then you said.. "palstinian muslims are not arabs.. they are all semites but not specifically arabs... see my above post^^^" I know many palestianian muslims and they are all Arab, trust me. palastinians refers to any body who lives in palastine, whether they be jews, muslims or christians... its a geographic designation...this is not a islam vs. jewish issue... current reaserach is showing taht all palstinian people are ethnically the same people, some just have diffrent religions... It is an Islam vs. jewish issue. It just depends on who you are. Some people are very religious, some people are fanatically religious and some people are secular. It depends on who you are if youre trying to gauge what the issue is. To a palestinain christian, no it's not an Islamic vs. Jewish issue, it's a land issue, but to a devout muslim or Jew it is an issue of Holy land also, not just an issue of the jews bulldozing palestinians houses or a palestinian walking onto a bus with a bomb vest. It's almost like a Gang war at this point, It's been war for so long there, people just grow up fighting from childhood. Allahu Akbar...May Allah guide the Jews. It's a trip to see the Jews at the wailing wall, and theyre so close to the 3rd most holiest mosque in the world where prayers are multiplied in rewards. If only they would let go of the traditions of the rabbis and follow the Torah. They would realize that Muhammad is the last and final prophet of Allah and accept him. I look at this whole thing anthropologically... but in terms of saying palastinians muslims are arabs.....I have to say I respectfully disagree... a main tenet of islam I understand is to take up "arab culture", much as you changed your name to dawwood and grew the beard and wear the clothes etc etc... same thing with these "arab" palastinians...they claim that for muslim solidarity.. I would bet you those so-called arabs that you know are ethnically and genetically of the palastine area... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAR Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I've been talking with a good friend of mine and he made a good point. Our oppinions obviously differ. I would venture to say that you are as guilty as I of being unwavering in your oppinion. Therefore I dont think that anything good can come of our conversation no matter how civilized. I guess I'm done with this thread if anyone has any questions to my oppinion they can go a few pages back. If you care to read more on the situation two books i recogmend are alan dershowitzs- the case for israel and myths and facts: a guide to the arab israel conflict by mitchell bard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawood Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 Actually, if you ask a religious muslim arab, being an arab has nothing to do with nationality. You are considered an Arab if you are proficient in the arabic language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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