Israel

[Smart]

True, the Israelis do invest a ton of 'intelligence' into their missle attacks. I'm not suggesting that they don't but I'm not forgetting things like the missle attack on the car that also killed one of the bad guy's kids. There have been apartment buildings targeted which contained 'innocent' families as well as bad guys.

 

I don't really have much sympathy for these 'innocents' but they do exist, or they did before their deaths. I have mostly just noted these things as life passes me by. I hear these things on the news sometimes and I think 'damn, shame about that, not gonna be a great press day for the Israelis... guess they did get some PLO types too...'

 

I will say that I have NEVER heard of Israelis shooting little girls.

[Dawood]

 

it looks like this nice Isreali soldier is teaching the kids how to hold the gun.

what a nice guy!

 

 

and here, it looks like they're taking this nice boy to see a movie or get an

ice cream.

 

how sweet, the Isreali soldiers showed these kids what a nice

job a few rockets can do on the house. NIce couch !

 

 

these boys seem to be relaying a message of some sort to a

nice fellow named "bush".

 

 

Grandpa Ariel is trying out his new hanshake buzzer on Uncle George.

what a great bunch.

[Smart]

So... why does that kid have a T-shirt on his head? Is that the style there?

[Dawood]

I was wondering the same thing. at first I thought maybe he was wearing it and they pulled it over his head but he has a jacket on. then I figured they were blindfolding him with it or something.

[Smart]

I was being facetious... that's the traditional garb of a rock thrower, from Ireland to Israel and all points between.

 

They scared the piss out of him too!

[LIVERWURST*]

ugg....I don't want to get into this now....or really at all.....heres a few quick examples and then I'm going to bed:

 

1. It is impossible to know how many Palestinians have been killed in Israel because the red cresent in israel has been known to inflate numbers. Not to mention they fail to give the reasons of death. Unlike the suicide bombers israelis dont kill people at random.

 

2.UN resolutions targetin the israelis and palestinians- Frankly if you read them and have a knowlage of the history behind them alot of them seem insignificant and sometimes silly.

 

3.Political prisoners and detaines- First off there have been civilains and soldiers kidnapped but since the palestinian people arent a governing body they cant hold them prisoner. Instead they end up dead on the side of the road or in a cave.

 

4.Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes

"0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000." Where it gets tricky is the palestinian government cannot demolish homes in Israel. What It fails to include is the number of jewish homes that have been demolished for being on illegal land and such. Not to mention when Israelis destroy palestinian homes it is because they are being used for smuggling weapons into israel.

 

5.New Settlements Built (March 2001 - July 2003)

"60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements." The dates are rather conveniant for a fairly well updated site. Aza and gush katif would be the reason for the laziness in the update.

 

Nope...

 

1) http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza <Hi Smart>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,915725,00.html An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist.

 

2) Of course they are silly - nothing significant could come out of the UN without the US stamp of approval (literally, we veto anything critical of Israel - http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/12/15/un.resolution/), though we can circumvent it apparently. I'm glad Smart respects you because this point seemed like you just talking - what were you trying to say?

 

3) The Palestinian government isn't a government? You are just another version of ISOR - you're a hack. You'll note that (assuming you read the news) America is now withholding funds from Palestine because Hamas was elected to run, oh I don't know, the country? Now beyond this, note we decided to withhold, which means we provided funding to some organization previously and I'm sure we would give million dollar hand outs to a group of Arab guys trying to blow up Israel with no organization or officiating body. Furthermore, in regards to your claim that all the Palestinians do is shoot people because they can't be bothered with jails or ethical treatment (after they were treated so good too) - why don't YOU back that up, because while I'm sure there are terrorists assholes in Palestine it doesn't mean the whole country is doing it. In fact it's kind of like those secret jails we have...wait

 

4) http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-02-01-israel-outpost_x.htm "Thousands of Israeli troops and police demolished part of the illegal West Bank outpost of Amona on Wednesday, facing stiff resistance that left more than 200 Jewish settlers and troops wounded." Israel destroys Israeli homes, there is a divide there much like one we have here between rural and urban populations. When Sharon began implementing his plan, Israeli soldiers were clearing out settlements. Of course Palestinians can't "demolish" shit - if they control an area it's because it was given to them and they would rather live in the homes. The reason I bring this up is how completely uninformed your rhetoric is...

 

5) http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0806-03.htm But despite similar promises, and televised images of Israeli soldiers wrestling with Jewish settlers to dismantle outposts, settlements continue to expand, threatening peace efforts. According to the Israeli nonprofit Peace Now, since the Bush administration's "road map" to peace was launched, twenty two outposts have been dismantled, but an equal number of new ones built. And just after his White House visit, Sharon's government announced plans to build new settlement housing in Gaza.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2119356

The winding route of this first phase of the plan traps 15 Palestinian villages with 13,600 residents between the Green Line and the barrier. These unfortunates are prohibited from entering Israel to the west, and physically barred from reaching their lands, businesses and extended families in their West Bank hinterland to the east. A further 30,000 Palestinian farmers who live on the east side of the barrier are now cut off from their orchards, groves and farms on the western side.

 

 

 

 

 

...I think the people you've been "doing this for years" with are likely not very interested or informed or even intelligent, because most of what you said is garbage and provided no facts - you expected credibility you don't have from what I can tell. You're not an expert and your facts don't hold up. They should rename this thread "King Bling / My Rotting Liver Pulls Cards"

[WORDISM45]

its cool mar i understand that you have ties to israel and i dont expect to change your opinion on an internet forum. but trying to say that israel hasnt indiscriminately killed palestinians is like holocaust denial. hey palestinians have indiscriminately killed plenty of israelis too, no ones trying to deny that, so why cant you just accept the obvious and move on with other reasoning and arguments as to why israel might be partly justified in its actions or something like that instead of blankly trying to say it doesnt happen when it most certainly does.

[Smart]

right on MRL, the thing I found most disturbing about that story... Obviously that was written right after the incedent and during the investigation, so I did some research trying to find out the eventual outcome... and there seems to have been anything additional. I would say that this was the result of one bloodthirsty soldier but the lack of legal retribution is unsettling.

 

One site I visited claimed that 649 children were killed during 2000-2004 in a deliberate attempt to intimidate Palestinians but I have no verification on that fact. Another site suggested that Palestinians diliberately put the children in dangerous situations so they could judge how close they could approach an installation.

 

The use of children as fodder during the Iran-Iraq war is a relatively well documented fact so, there may be something to that argument as well. I'm not trying to take sides but both those arguments are out there.

 

Additionally, one of my friends was in Somalia, his team was sent in to resecure that intersection you may have seen in Blackhawk Down. He said almost every male from around 12 and older carried an AK. One day we happened to be talking about the whole scene over there and he said how he thanked God he never had to shoot one of those kids but he also assured me that he would have if he had to.

 

So, kids are combatants too... not that little girl though.

[MAR]

Nope...

 

1) http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza <Hi Smart>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,915725,00.html An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist.

 

Do some reaserch on the subjects.

Rachael Corrie:

http://www.peacewithrealism.org/corrie.htm

 

Iman Darweesh Al Hams:

According to an investigation by the IDF's Southern Front Command' date=' soldiers spotted a figure carrying a bag at 0700 on the morning of October 5, as it approached the IDF Girit outpost along the Philadelphi Road in the Tel Sultan neighborhood of Rafah, an area allegedly banned to Palestinians by Israeli military authorities. Suspecting that the bag contained a bomb, soldiers fired and hit the figure. "Captain R", and members of his unit left the army post to "defuse the threat," only to discover that the threat was a young schoolgirl, And the bag was later found to contain only schoolbooks.

Israeli soldiers from the platoon testified that the commander knowingly shot the girl in the head at close range and then emptied his magazine of bullets into her body to "confirm the kill." One of the soldiers was quoted as saying:

"We saw her from a distance of 70 meters. She was fired at and shot from the outpost. She tried to flee but was wounded badly. I understand she was dead. The commander walked toward her, he shot her with two additional bullets before returning to the outpost. Then he returned to the girl, put his weapon on automatic and -- ignoring our objections on the walkie-talkie – emptied his entire magazine into her body." Another soldier reportedly testified, "Our hearts ached for her. Just a 13-year-old girl. How can anyone spray a girl from close range… The commander was hot for a long time to take out Arab and shot the girl to relieve pressure."

It was revealed later that soldiers who had testified about "Captain R" had lied to the investigators in order to frame their commander "because he was a tough commander and often handed out harsh punishments . They revealed that other soldiers had initially taken part in the shooting of Iman al-Hams, not just their commander, and that the commander had not, as reported earlier, shot the girl from close range. Said one soldier to Ma'ariv:

"After we fired, the platoon commander went out to make sure she was dead. He fired only two bullets at her from a relatively distant point, fearing she was wearing a bomb belt. He then headed back to the outpost, but suddenly turned around and fired a long burst. I saw where the body was, and in which direction he fired. It wasn't even close [to the girl]. He fired towards Rafiah, in response to a burst of fire..." On March 6, 2005, a report in the Israeli daily "Yediot Aharonot" entitled "The video of the killing: Was the girl alone?" stated that the video tape from the event revealed a Palestinian man about 50 meters from the girl, walking away from the scene toward the houses of Rafah. "Captain R"'s lawyer claimed it was a militant, who had probably sent the girl to the "No man's land" as a decoy or bait.On November 15, 2005 a military tribunal acquitted Captain R and cleared him from all the charges against him. The court revealed that the accusations that he "comfirmed kill" on the girl were based on false testimonies and a video that show suspicious Palestinian figure near the girl, probably the terrorist who sent her.

 

I'm not saying I'm glad she's dead but I completely understand why it happened.

 

2) Of course they are silly - nothing significant could come out of the UN without the US stamp of approval (literally, we veto anything critical of Israel - http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/12/15/un.resolution/), though we can circumvent it apparently. I'm glad Smart respects you because this point seemed like you just talking - what were you trying to say?

 

Basicly that the un resolutions tend to look uninformed after time passes (iraq's nucleur powerplant for example).

 

3) The Palestinian government isn't a government? You are just another version of ISOR - you're a hack. You'll note that (assuming you read the news) America is now withholding funds from Palestine because Hamas was elected to run, oh I don't know, the country? Now beyond this, note we decided to withhold, which means we provided funding to some organization previously and I'm sure we would give million dollar hand outs to a group of Arab guys trying to blow up Israel with no organization or officiating body. Furthermore, in regards to your claim that all the Palestinians do is shoot people because they can't be bothered with jails or ethical treatment (after they were treated so good too) - why don't YOU back that up, because while I'm sure there are terrorists assholes in Palestine it doesn't mean the whole country is doing it. In fact it's kind of like those secret jails we have...wait

 

The palestinians lack soverinty therefore in my oppinion their goverment is basic at best.

 

"because while I'm sure there are terrorists assholes in Palestine it doesn't mean the whole country is doing it." maybe so but they did vote for hamas which tells you something about their oppinion on terrorism.

 

4) http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-02-01-israel-outpost_x.htm "Thousands of Israeli troops and police demolished part of the illegal West Bank outpost of Amona on Wednesday, facing stiff resistance that left more than 200 Jewish settlers and troops wounded." Israel destroys Israeli homes, there is a divide there much like one we have here between rural and urban populations. When Sharon began implementing his plan, Israeli soldiers were clearing out settlements. Of course Palestinians can't "demolish" shit - if they control an area it's because it was given to them and they would rather live in the homes. The reason I bring this up is how completely uninformed your rhetoric is...

 

This paragraph doesnt even make sense...

 

5) http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0806-03.htm But despite similar promises, and televised images of Israeli soldiers wrestling with Jewish settlers to dismantle outposts, settlements continue to expand, threatening peace efforts. According to the Israeli nonprofit Peace Now, since the Bush administration's "road map" to peace was launched, twenty two outposts have been dismantled, but an equal number of new ones built. And just after his White House visit, Sharon's government announced plans to build new settlement housing in Gaza.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2119356

The winding route of this first phase of the plan traps 15 Palestinian villages with 13,600 residents between the Green Line and the barrier. These unfortunates are prohibited from entering Israel to the west, and physically barred from reaching their lands, businesses and extended families in their West Bank hinterland to the east. A further 30,000 Palestinian farmers who live on the east side of the barrier are now cut off from their orchards, groves and farms on the western side.

 

Where were they built? Thats important.

 

As far as the security wall. Because of it Israels main sorce of vegetables (Gush katif) were lost. Everyone took a loss.

 

 

...I think the people you've been "doing this for years" with are likely not very interested or informed or even intelligent, because most of what you said is garbage and provided no facts - you expected credibility you don't have from what I can tell. You're not an expert and your facts don't hold up. They should rename this thread "King Bling / My Rotting Liver Pulls Cards"

 

You talk to much.

 

 

 

Look man as you may have noticed I've decided to take a sabbatical from this site so I can focus on my own work but Im willing to take a few minutes to argue with you. Just because i do this alot doesnt mean i dont care anymore. I still read Arab newspapers daily, once in a while I read sermons given in mosques and Israeli papers and news broadcasts too. I care and thats why I willing to argue with you.

[villain]

And using bombs and rockets in "assassination" attacks is about as tactical as using an elephant gun to swat a fly. Why is it so hard for you to admit that both sides are guilty of commiting heinous hate crimes on each other?

[WORDISM45]

please forgive me if i dont believe that that poor schoolgirl was sent into no mans land and subsequently shot because of 'a terrorist' . its fucking bullshit wow some guy was walking within 50 metres of the incident shit he msut have been a terrorist that sent the girl in there thats some damn fine deductive reasoning. those mysterious shadowy unnamed intangible terrorists keep causing so much mischief, its like bam throw the word terrrorist into the equation and snap its no longer anyones fault. i also feel sorry for the israeli soldiers who tried to do the right thing afterwards and give up the son of a bitch that sadistically executed her, its a pity they were silenced to avoid public outcry and give the military a bad name.

[KaBar2]

Eventually, you guys are going to tire of endlessly debating this bullshit and do an independent investigation of all this crap and you'll probably come to some clearer understanding about it.

 

You will have to go way back in history to understand the problems we are facing with Israel's aggression and entitled attitude, the Palestinian's hatred of the Jews, and the seemingly inexplicable, bizarre support of Israel by the United States.

 

I read that the U.S. has given Israel 61 TRILLION DOLLARS since 1948.

 

Holy shit, that's a lot of money.

 

WHY WOULD WE DO THAT? Seek the answer.

[Nekro]

Sixty one trillion dollars? Did you leave a decimal point out?

[MAR]

The annual Palestinian budget is about USD 1.9 billion. The USD 1.3 billion in foreign aid last year accounted for 32 percent of Palestinian gross domestic product' date=' making Palestinians the biggest per capita recipients of foreign aid in the world. [/quote']

 

Kabar2: If you go back and do your own independent study Im sure you will understand Israels sense of "entitlement" more. Just read straight history books.

 

yumone: I assure you living in israel is nothing like america. The constant threat of terrorism make people very edgy. It doesnt help that some of the terrorists feel life has little value and are willing to sacrifice it for what they feel is a greater cause. The constant threat of terrorism and use of young children as weapons makes military peacekeeping efforts that much harder. Trust me I have a good friend who is a tank commander who is haunted by the fact that he had to shoot a boy who had aimed a sholder rocket at his tank.

 

"those mysterious shadowy unnamed intangible terrorists keep causing so much mischief"

 

Do you mean the Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Abu Nidal Organization?

[Dawood]

The Jews attitude of entitlement comes from a beleif that they are God's chosen people and everybody else are basically dogs. ok, Mar, GO!

 

I didn't say that as a Judaism expert, but as a person who understands very little about judaism so keep in mind I don't mind being wrong.

Mar, also, I was trying to find an authentic talmud site but I kept finding all these beleifnet type sites that say Judaism should change and that Judaism is evolving etc. can you give me a link to the nitty gritty talmud teachings where they say it's ok to lie to a gentile and hurt him and mess up his plans and to charge him interest etc. etc. ?

I found some sites with this stuff , but it seems to be sites only put up by christians trying to expose judaism and that stuff can't be too objective, so, where's the good stuff?

[MAR]

Dawood i really was starting to respect you as an individual even though our oppinions often differ. I must say I am rather surprised at you most recent post and Im quite offended. But Im sure that matters little to you.

 

Anyhow you wont find what you are looking for on any Jewish sites. Maybe try Al-Jezirah, Hamas's, or a neo-nazi website I'm sure they will put that negitive spin on my religion your looking for.

[WORDISM45]

 

yumone: I assure you living in israel is nothing like america. The constant threat of terrorism make people very edgy. It doesnt help that some of the terrorists feel life has little value and are willing to sacrifice it for what they feel is a greater cause. The constant threat of terrorism and use of young children as weapons makes military peacekeeping efforts that much harder. Trust me I have a good friend who is a tank commander who is haunted by the fact that he had to shoot a boy who had aimed a sholder rocket at his tank.

 

"those mysterious shadowy unnamed intangible terrorists keep causing so much mischief"

 

Do you mean the Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Abu Nidal Organization?

i'm not an american im an australian, the closest thing weve had to a terrorist attack was some indonesian arseholes blowing up a club in indonesia where some australians were at, yet for some reason our government has enacted anti terror legislation to keep us all safe and secure and which has helped them arrest a lot of muslims with minimal evidence (just for context im not a muslim and the relationship between muslims and the rest of australian society is a very precarious one and has been so for a long time before terrrorism due to ethnic gang violence etc.). i do understand that in israel the threat of there beign an actual real deal terrorist about to kill you is a fact and a very disconcerting one at that. i just cant stand it that these days a person in a percieved position of power can just drop the word 'terrorist' and everyone gives him a blank cheque without thinknig once let alone twice.just out of interest are you an israeli living in israel or an american or what?

[MAR]

american. I lived their for a few years but came back to the states, begrudginly, for college when I finish im moving back.

 

I understand your concern. I feel what america's doing in gitmo has gotten out of hand, and all in the name of terrorism.

[Dawood]

Dawood i really was starting to respect you as an individual even though our oppinions often differ. I must say I am rather surprised at you most recent post and Im quite offended. But Im sure that matters little to you.

 

Anyhow you wont find what you are looking for on any Jewish sites. Maybe try Al-Jezirah, Hamas's, or a neo-nazi website I'm sure they will put that negitive spin on my religion your looking for.

 

I was actually messing with you. Just a freindly Jab .

I was actually hoping you'd give me a little more to play with, but I guess I'll have to

find it myself. psssht.

[Nekro]

Dawood i really was starting to respect you as an individual even though our oppinions often differ. I must say I am rather surprised at you most recent post and Im quite offended. But Im sure that matters little to you.

 

Anyhow you wont find what you are looking for on any Jewish sites. Maybe try Al-Jezirah, Hamas's, or a neo-nazi website I'm sure they will put that negitive spin on my religion your looking for.

The whole fucking premise of judaism is that the people of israel are god's chosen people. What part of "chosen people of israel" don't you understand?

[MAR]

i dont think that was directed at me but even so I want to clarify something. Just because the jews are the chosen people doesnt mean they can take advantage of the other nations. Jews are supposed to be a "light unto the nations", an example for the other nations to follow. Therefore if the jews act improperly* they are not walking in the way of G-d. So if a jew cheats a gentile they have sinned, and have caused an embaresment before G-d.

 

 

*This is not a invitation for pro-palestinians to take a jab at what they view as a injustice done to their people.

[Nekro]

Basically the jews are douchebags. So are the palestinians. Neither justifies the other. They're just going to have to keep killing each other until they can work some shit out.

[MAR]

Basically the jews are douchebags. So are the palestinians. Neither justifies the other. They're just going to have to keep killing each other until they can work some shit out.

 

Keep making blanket statements I hear it will get you far in life.

[Dawood]

i dont think that was directed at me but even so I want to clarify something. Just because the jews are the chosen people doesnt mean they can take advantage of the other nations. Jews are supposed to be a "light unto the nations", an example for the other nations to follow. Therefore if the jews act improperly* they are not walking in the way of G-d. So if a jew cheats a gentile they have sinned, and have caused an embaresment before G-d.

 

 

*This is not a invitation for pro-palestinians to take a jab at what they view as a injustice done to their people.

 

 

just in case you mistakenly thought I was pro-palestianian, then let me clear that up for you.

I'm not Pro-Palestianian. I am pro-submission to the will of the creator (i.e. Islam) Palestinians as a group do a lot of things that I personally, and my religion disagree with so I could never say I'm "pro-palestianian". Because palestinians are right sometimes and theyre wrong sometimes, so whatever. I'm Italian and I live in America. Palestine is not my biggest concern. Although if you throw into the equation a palestianian MUSLIM being killed unjustly, well, then that changes the whole story. To me the muslim's blood is more sacred than the kaaba in mecca.

I'm glad you say that Jews are not allowed by Judaism to cheat gentiles. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say that all Jews feel that way. I've spent a lot of time in Brooklyn. I know Jews.

[Smart]

Yeah, it's well known that the only people cheating gentiles in Brooklyn are Jews. It's been that way since the 1920's.

[The Man with the Answers]

as an irish cathloic I hate both kikes and wops, they both have the negroid blood

[MAR]

I've spent a lot of time in Brooklyn. I know Jews.

 

If you think brooklyn is jews, you dont know jews. American Judaism is pretty lame.

 

Anyhow its always interesting to get an insight on your view of things. I like our chats.

[Dawood]

If you think brooklyn is jews, you dont know jews. American Judaism is pretty lame.

 

Anyhow its always interesting to get an insight on your view of things. I like our chats.

 

 

thanks.

 

I thought Jews were pretty deep on the Eastern Pkwy In brooklyn. I used to see them all secret serviced out around there in their black Yukons with their black suits and hats. White shirts and yamakas. I'd see them talking on their CB's looking at us like we had a bomb or something. ha,ha...they don't call it Jew York for nothing, Mar.

 

nah, seriously...tell me about real Judaism and why Jews don't accept Muhammad. (peace be upon him) Don't you know he was mentioned in the Torah?

[WORDISM45]

i hate people who source any religious scipture to make a point its pretty much the lamest most impotent addition to any argument

[Smart]

...they don't call it Jew York for nothing...

 

Nobody I knows calls it that, they call it Hymietown...