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time to start this discussion up again. I'm struck recently by how calous israel is...in public statements even. Usually when a state does somthing horrible they try to sugar coat things...not with israel it seems.

Horrible things are happening, but when a palestinian suicide bomber strikes at civilians, its the act of a dedicated member of a terrorist organization. When israeli troops open fire on an ambulance killing the doctor and EMS guy, or launch rockets into densely populated civilian areas, it is the act of a state. There is no arguing that, and I think its a million times worse than when a lone person is responsible. Every citizen who voted for sharon should have this on their concience!

 

I saw images of palestinians males being rounded up in camps today and strip searched (some reports are saying the detainees had numbers painted on them while being processed). Houses being ramsacked by israeli troops searching for weapons, or any people in hiding. Anyone see where I'm going with this? How does this not creep the fuck outta the average israeli citizen?

 

I'm curious to hear more about the burgeoning peace movement going on. I think despite what we see every day on the news, most of the people living through it have started to see the futility in this cycle of violence. Perhaps we will see a very public challenge of the ultra-orthodox voting block that steers so much of israeli politics...

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)BETHLEHEM, West Bank (AP) - Palestinian officials charged today that Israel was purposely targeting health workers, after five Palestinian medics were killed by Israeli troops shooting at rescue vehicles.

 

Israel countered that ambulances are frequently being used to ferry weapons and gunmen.

 

On Friday, a male nurse and a hospital administrator were killed by Israeli troops. The administrator, who runs a small hospital in Bethlehem, was driving toward Bethlehem to pick up staff and medical supplies and had coordinated the trip with the Israeli army, but was nevertheless shot by an army machine-gunner, Palestinian officials said.

 

The male nurse was killed when Israeli naval patrol boats opened fire on a police base north of Gaza City.

 

Earlier this week, the director of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in the West Bank city of Jenin as well as an ambulance driver and a U.N. nurse in the nearby town of Tulkarem were killed by Israeli troops.

 

The Israelis are trying to intimidate the ambulance crews so that they will not be able to reach the wounded, said Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, head of the Palestinian Medical Relief, a non-governmental organization.

 

"They want them to bleed to death, to push up the fatalities as high as they can," Barghouti said.

 

Israeli generals and officials said repeated use of ambulances by the Palestinians to carry gunmen and ammunition has forced the army to stop all ambulances for checking. "The other side is using ambulances to attack our soldiers," said Brig. Gen. Gershon Yitzhak, commander of Israeli forces in the West Bank.

 

Some of the ambulances defy orders to stop, said Israeli government spokesman Avi Pazner. "If an ambulance tries to break through a road block, it is reasonable for the soldiers to assume that it is not being used for its humanitarian purpose, so they have no choice but to open fire," Pazner said.

 

The Palestinians deny having used ambulances for carrying gunmen or ammunition. "It's a lie," Barghouti said. "Have they ever proven it?''

 

In the past 17 months of fighting there have been over 170 Israeli shooting attacks on Palestinian ambulances, Barghouti said, and 15 doctors and other ambulance crew members have been killed.

 

However Palestinian gunmen have also fired on Israeli army medics and civilian ambulance crews who were trying to rescue wounded soldiers and civilians, and several of the medical staff have been killed

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What Israel and many other feel is that indeed it is not the act of a single madman that goes into a pizzeria or shopping center and detonates himself. Arafat is is a member of some of these organizations. Some argue that these organizations are not terrorist's and that only a few hardcore members in that organization are in fact terrorists. But since I don't live out there it's pretty hard for me or you to fully understand what is going on out there other than the situation being FUCKED for all parties involved. Try imagining people on Montreal going over to Toronto or some other Canadien city and exploding inside a shopping mall where your mom and dad work or buy groceries, because they want independence from Canada. Imagine this happening for a year and a half.

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This stuff is happening way to much. It's on the news all the time. Do they have drugs in Israearl? That would calm them down.,....

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Thats exactly what I find so depressing about this situation. How can this possibly be resolved any time soon?

 

Its odd, I've commented many times that I feel arafat has passed his prime long ago, and he is doing more harm than help to the palestinian cause. But at the same time he was (is?) the one small thing keeping the situation from completely devolving into all out war. You can see as his influence dwindles (I'm thinking of the refusal by israel to negotiate with him) and has his limited power stripped from him the shit starts to hit the fan...

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It's seems like ALL sides are acting like old men set in their ways unwilling to budge. They NEED some outside mediating. They call on the US but we can't help. We've sent people in there a couple times in the past few months. Nothing. Then Saudi Arabia offered up a plan/solution that would be similar to the plan Clinton proposed a few years back. Personally from what I see I think neither side wants to budge for fear of looking bad in their country. Arafat doesent want to give Israel too much and then not have the respect of the Palestinians. He wants to be remembered for something. And Israel is kinda stuck in a tough spot too. They don't want to give in too much. I mean if they give in too much because of the escalating violence with all these suicidal bombers than people will think the way to get to Israel is to use suicide bombers if they want change. Then again if they don't budge will there ever be peace? From what I've heard these people really hate each other with a passion. I went into a Arabic bookstore and was talking with the owner which was Iraqi/Babylonian he got pretty heated when it came to Israel. And he's not even Palestinian. I just don't know what will happen out there. Maybe it would be better off if Arafat wasn't there "trying" to hold down some sort of peace. Maybe they would engage in an all out war be finished and settle down for a while as horrible as that may seem. Innocent people at shopping centers dying daily isn't much better.

 

Yeah maybe your right Dazzle. Maybe they need a little herb in their lifes to chill people out. Throw a little in the hookahs before dinner.

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This may sound like a totally retarded reply but I',=m not intending it to be at all. Why the fuck don't they kill Arafat?? He's obviolsy the root of all the prob;lems, regardless of amount of proof or whatever. He has shown that he is not willing to negotiate at all, so why not get rid of the source??

 

The world is so focused on the elimintaion of terrorists right now. But all they are focussing on is Al Queda. What would you cxall the PLF (or whatever group he was a leader of)? Someone has to resolve this shit befor it gets totally out of control. Don't the iSsraelis have nuclear weapons? And one of the strongest armies in the world?

 

I guess the arguments could be that eliminting him wouldn't eliminate the problem. And palestinians do really have a right to be pissed off...whatever.

 

 

SOrry if this sounds like total bullshit. My heads' not working stright right now. Hopefully you can get the point i am trying to make from this jibberish.....

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Trust me I'm sure Israel has thought about this plenty of times. But then again you have to think who would replace Arafat? Maybe someone moreanti-Israel then your fucked to the second power. He's actually calmed down in recent years. I think it might be because he wants to leave a legacy behind. But at the same time he tells the UN, The US, Europe he wants peace for Israel and Palestine but then at the same time has speeches calling for violence against Israel.

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The whoole issue is fucked up. I guess it all comes down to religion. As we all know, you don't fuck with middle seasterns and there religion......

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I think arafat doesn't have any power to negotiate. He can't even control his own organization, let alone make any promises on behalf on all palestinians. He's a bit of a figurehead these days. But, he still draws enough respect that killing him would unleash a wave of suicide bombers the likes of which we've never seen.

 

The same circumstances create the suicide bombers, and soldiers who can kill civilians without batting an eyelash. Its from living a life where any day you could step outside your house and be blown to bits by a bomber, or flattened by debris from the rocket attack on the palestenian police station next to your house.

 

Pistol:

I think when all is said and done, you may be able to find some kind of compromise, but it will be just that. As soon as one side sees the opportunity to eliminate the other, they will. Thats the problem with a conflict over religion, some basic tenets and demands can never change, and thats at the core of this dispute.

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they need to solve this issue, i dont see why they cant share the land, i mean sure religious differences, but i dont know about you guys, but i have a mosque, catholic church, jewish church, lutherin church, and a whole wack of other crap within 20 minutes of eachother and i dont have any terrorism in my city. they shuold just live and let live. and the meia coverage shuoldnt be so fucking biased, go talk to a syrian, lebanese, or palestinian about thier views on the jews, quite unfair to say the least. how is fighting a tank with a rock considered terrorism? fuck this gets me so mad. share the fucking land. it was palestinian land, but if you say the jews were booted a long time ago, they should be fighting the romans not the palestinans, fuck just share that shit. its not that hard.

 

 

 

 

just ignore all this babbling.

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I agree TT. I don't see why they can't just share the land live their life and be happy. Alot of the sticking points to any agreement has to do with power. Israel doesent want to allow Palestinians that moved to be able to move back in with their new families and have citizenship. Palestine want that so they could have more power in the government. But in regards to your comments about rocks and tanks. It's terrorism when you attach bombs to your body , go to a crowded bazaar/market filled with innocent families and explode yourself with nails attached to your body so you can create more shrapnel. Throwing rocks at tanks is idiotic. But most of the time if it is just someone throwing rocks and tanks the Israeli soldiers just watch. They don't just have "shoot to kil" orders on anyone armed with a rock.

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Originally posted by Dr. Dazzle

The whoole issue is fucked up. I guess it all comes down to religion. As we all know, you don't fuck with middle seasterns and there religion......

 

 

its not about religion, anymore than the whole northen Ireland thing is....................its about tribalism and racism

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israel dont fuck around. if they get hit, they take as much as possible. but they have to, theyre a small country surrounded by a bunch of people that hate them.

 

its an ugly situation.

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Yah, it's way fucked up over there right now. Nobody's willing to compromise, so I don't see any stop to it soon. What I find disturbing is the US and their current position of condemning the violence on both sides. What the fucks been happening for the last year (esp. since the 11th) was so much more important that we didn't feel the need to say something before?

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Originally posted by chozer

israel dont fuck around. if they get hit, they take as much as possible. but they have to, theyre a small country surrounded by a bunch of people that hate them.

 

maybe they should get the fuck out of the Occupied Territories then.....?

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the statements the US has made are all about appearences really. They are the biggest military and financial backer of israel as far as I know. If they really wanted things done they would start cutting funding and support, and stop backing israel so much. Youd see israel cool down real fast if that ever happened...the last people they wanna piss off are the americans.

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Originally posted by bodice_ripper

 

maybe they should get the fuck out of the Occupied Territories then.....?

 

 

what, you mean the land of palestine?

 

 

there hasnt been a country of palestine in a VERY long time. whether it was jordan ruling the palestinians or the british...it was turned over to the jewish after WWII, despite palestinians discontent. israel showed they were willing to fight over it (backed by the us, yes). is it right? who knows.....its another internet opinion battle..

 

 

 

ugh.

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Originally posted by bodice_ripper

 

 

its not about religion, anymore than the whole northen Ireland thing is....................its about tribalism and racism

 

 

What are you talking about?? It's totally about religion. That's why they can't agree to share the land. I don't know the specifics, but it's something like Palestines Holyland or something to that affect is iin Israel, or vice versa or something. If it was tribalism it could be resolved. In case you've been living in a cave with your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears for the last 6 months or so, middle easterns are INCREDIBLY religious, and fanatics use it as and excuse/reason for violence. You, me, or any other maember on this board cannot grasp the scope of that, and that's a major reason of why all this shit happens and they can't just get along......

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Try imagining people on Montreal going over to Toronto or some other Canadien city and exploding inside a shopping mall where your mom and dad work or buy groceries, because they want independence from Canada. -pistol

 

if the people in montreal were being oppressed the way the palestinians are, i wouldnt be able to blame them, even if it meant people close to me died.

if the indians got all pissed off one day and left the reservation, how the fuck could i blame them for killing white people? wouldnt it make more sense to blame 'america' for creating a climate that produced a bunch of pissed off indians?

if you have a belly full of food and and a new episode of the simpsons on tv, your not leaving your house to blow up a rollerskating rink, your chilling on the couch.

 

as far as im concerned, fuck isreal. i got no love for a midget talking shit to me, just cause he's got brothers on the football team. isreal, and the jewish race in general, is so concerned with making sure the rest of the world knows how bad they have it, yet they could give two shits about anyone else. sorry, i dont give a shit. stand up for everyone, or sit the fuck down. everyone knows about the 6 millions jews killed by germany, but how many people know about the ten million people killed in china? or the 4 million tibetans murdered, or the millions of other people killed every year by opressive governments? if you're not trying to create a global community that stands against opression, then there will always be someone waiting to opress you. if your only concerned with yourself, no one else is gonna give a shit about you.

 

fuck a isreal.

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everything seeking said = a+ in my opinion.

 

and yes the halocaust was terrible, but i have almost no idea about any other terrible massacres. total bullshit. that's what i get for public schools i guess.

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good stuff fox.

 

 

i'll be the first to admit, i dont know all the facts behind this whole situation, but it doesnt take any 'facts' to know that 99% of the time, the bully is the one who needs a good ass whooping.

 

if the UN told everyone in florida that they had to move out, cause all the cubans were moving in, americans would fucking freak out. yet we support, and have supported for 50 years, the isrealies doing the exact same thing.

i dont blame jews for wanting something of their own, but i can blame them for acting like the world owes them something, so it doesnt matter who they take 'their' piece from. and while i think the halocaust was a unimaginably terrible thing, it doesnt give you free reign to be a fucking dickhead. it's ok to question any country in the world, but isreal, because everyone is so fucking scared of being labeled anti-semetic. there were 4 million people killed during the halocaust that WERENT jewish, but how many people know about that? we know about the 6 million jews, but no one knows, gives a shit, or feels bad for everyone else. why is that? cause the fags and gypsys dont have a fucking advertising agency making sure that the whole world constantly has a tear in its eye so it cant see the bullshit in front of its nose.

blah... i cant deal with people only concerned with their own agenda.

 

anyone familliar with how we 'aquired' hawaii?

 

 

seeking/american/hypocrit by burden of birth

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Originally posted by seeking innocence

as far as im concerned, fuck isreal. i got no love for a midget talking shit to me, just cause he's got brothers on the football team. isreal, and the jewish race in general, is so concerned with making sure the rest of the world knows how bad they have it, yet they could give two shits about anyone else. sorry, i dont give a shit. stand up for everyone, or sit the fuck down. everyone knows about the 6 millions jews killed by germany, but how many people know about the ten million people killed in china? or the 4 million tibetans murdered, or the millions of other people killed every year by opressive governments? if you're not trying to create a global community that stands against opression, then there will always be someone waiting to opress you. if your only concerned with yourself, no one else is gonna give a shit about you.

 

fuck a isreal.

 

 

 

you're a moron.. it's been confirmed. :spent:

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