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Smart

do NOT advertise on our boards

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I'm fucking fed up with all the people ignoring the blatant prohibition against advertising on our boards included it the conditions of becoming a member.

 

All advertising threads not pre-approved by the moderators will be deleted without comment from now on. Those who post these threads will be seriously considered for banning.

 

Respect the work we have done to make this the best graf forum on the net and get the fuck off our coat tails!

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CLARIFY

 

So even the 200 or so of us that have our signature being our website adress is bad? Just need some clarification. I did a couple bads a while back but I try not to slut out unless it's relavent to a post.

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I think we'd like to let people ride on the 'honor system' but the fact is, this is a commercial site, even though we don't have our commercial jibs on. Wal-Mart doesn't let Kmart advertise in their stores so... if you've got a commercial site and you advertise, even in your signature, you're looking at being 'caught out there' when the hammer falls...

 

if you think you're pushing something that might be unique, or unaffiliated with what our site is/will be offering (SOON TO COME) send an email to one of the admins and we'll be glad to reply, explaining exactly why, or why not, your post/link/signature is or isn't kosher...

 

give it some thought... if we can reasonably assume that you're competition, and you want to participate in the general discussion, then you might want to reconsider anything resembling advertising... this isn't a 'classified ads' board. Also, if some shady characters come on the scene, the LAST thing we want is to be associated with them, even if it's just "some site I heard about on 12oz ripped me off"...

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*A good example is Devilush's zine, Shortcuts. SHe's not clocking any dollars from it and hardly covering her print costs, so if she wants to come on and ask for subscribers and a $1 or so an issue, it's all good...

 

On the flip side, if you spam all the forums pushing your new mail-order site it won't be good...

 

Also, until we officially open the store, we'll probably be ok with replies to threads asking for specific info, i.e. 'where can I get montana online?' but, once we get rolling again some of those posts will probably be considered in poor form and will be 'dealt with'.

 

As always, we want to be fair and cool about all things but, there are certain issues that must be addressed for our own survival. This is why we don't allow posts about theft or porn...

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UNDERSTOOD

 

Cool. I get the jist. I have basically tried to stear clear of "whoring" and will continue to do so in the future. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't stepping on toes with my sig cause I like you guys and wouldn't want ill will. Like I said , I got lame a while back but now I'm just here like the rest of us to have fun and get /give info about this sport.

 

P.S. When and if my sig was to clash with any future sales endevours of 12oz I WILL snap it.

 

CAPS.... i feel so dirty. Maybe I'll get my cat to lick me clean.... where am I?

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Caps, thank you for your understanding, if it becomes an issue, we will let you know before any drastic action is undertaken.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Clogged Cans

Is it cool if i post info about an upcoming event, for graff headz such as the Clogged Caps Show... :X :confused: ?

 

No, events are fully cool to post about, actually encouraged...

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Guest fr8lover

some websites like to notify people of their updates and happenings accompanied by pictures from said updates...is that still acceptable (maybe it hasnt been in the past, either)?

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yes i agree , those ad threads are quite annoying bc 90% of the time no one cares and they just piss ppl off.....

 

i am curious as to what this 12oz store is going to encompass.........?

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i don't wanna sound like an asshole, but i have been coming here for a little over 2 years and i think you guys have been saying this whole time the store is opening back up soon. whats the deal?

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Originally posted by Smart

*A good example is Devilush's zine, Shortcuts. SHe's not clocking any dollars from it and hardly covering her print costs, so if she wants to come on and ask for subscribers and a $1 or so an issue, it's all good...

 

fuck no i am not making money off of it! but i love doing it. but thank you for mentioning me. i guess i am a good example since i am not putting out the zine for any kinda of money or for any fame. plus, it's not like i registered in like a month ago and started to ask for money to help me out with a zine. i've put in my dues.

 

thanks smart. :king:

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Originally posted by Fox Mulder

i don't wanna sound like an asshole, but i have been coming here for a little over 2 years and i think you guys have been saying this whole time the store is opening back up soon. whats the deal?

 

Amen! 12oz needs to quit their day jobs and get this shit rolling.

 

Like everyone else on this board I didn't read the "rules and regulations" and went right on to click accept when registering.

 

My sincere apologies for creating previous posts promoting my zine.

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Guest HAL

My guess is that every moderator is going to have his or her own personal way of dealing with solicitation. My personal view is this:

 

1. Starting threads specificaly to plug your mailorder or magazine is poor form. This shit irritates me personally, because I see it as a bunch of guys trying to make money and exploit other writers. If you start a mailorder and quietly sell caps, mags, or euro paint, that's fine. I have no problem with you posting your link to a post specifically asking where to get caps or mags. If you come on here wih the sole intention of making a quick buck, forget it. I'll warn you and ban you if you continue. I have no problem with people selling graff supplies, but agressive solicitation is frowned upon. I don't really like little plugs in a signature, because that's a form of spamming, but I'm not going to go and edit your preferences. If you contribue flicks and or positive discussion, then I don't care. If you're all "yo yo yo buy muh shit", I'll be inclined to "fix" it.

 

2. I encourage posting a link to your graffiti website. If you're not selling anything or trying to fleece some kids for their change, that's cool. If you have a site containing actual photos of graffiti, or aything that might benefit someone interested in graff, even better. Starting a new thread in every forum plugging your site is in bad taste, but I'll let it ride for a bit. I know people get excited after putting a lot of work into a new site, especialy if it has a lot of new flicks. Having the link in your signature is fine by me.

 

3. Promoting magazines is the same as promoting product. This is a site for a graffiti magazine. I feel confident that 12oz Prophet's quality carries it above and beyond the competition, so some magazine you do just for the love of it, I'm not going to have a problem with. In the example of Dead In The Dirt or Shortcuts, it's done by cool people that aren't making much profit, if any, and they just like graffiti. If you come on here plugging your hot new magazine and asking for subscriptions, they you're only looking like a punk. It will get deleted and you lose integrity as a member of this community.

 

Basically, honesty, integrity and modesty get two thumbs up. If you want to promote graffiti (not graffiti merchandise) and improve the average writer's repertoire, that's cool. Used car salesmen get the boot with the quickness. We don't need no stinking badgers. :) Pretty simple, but Smart or Cracked Ass may have a different personal policy, so keep that in mind. I'm pretty open ended.

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Guest ishavemybutt

Advertising Questions

 

I sent an e mail to the webmaster about this but just in case.....

 

I put out a black and white zine and i have put up post telling people that a new issue is ready and where to send the money before, but i have been predisposed as of late and havent been on 12oz in a while, anyway i was wondering if i could make a post telling people the new issue is ready.......but i guess i just did.......oops....well let me know, you can ask devilush about my zine, im in pretty much the same boat as she is.....thanks.....

ishavemybuttoner.

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Guest KING BLING

maybe you guys could create a sticky where after people submit sites for review, moderators post web sites that are not selling anything and also those that are non-competitive in advertising content or other wise. Their is a shit load of free/non-commercial web sites just doing it for the love, like nothingbutfreights.com, it would be ashame to not expose more people to sites like that.....

 

secondly, perhaps you could play the supporting role for some of the mags by allowing people to sell through your site where you make some profit

 

shit I work too much.......

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Just put up a commercial section

 

That lists threads as a straight-up commercial enterprise. I still am a little foggy as to why young people are so turned off by making a buck. I was too, but I learned better. You can either work at Wendy's or Blockbuster, or you can just own the place yourself and be free of all the demands to do shit the way the Wendy's or Blockbuster corporation wants you to. Back when I was a radical labor organizer, I busted ass for years (with virtually no success) at trying to get people to rise up against the oppressive system of capitalism. My buddy, who thought I was wasting my time, opened a surf shop, where he made and sold boards, skateboards, T-shirts, baggies & bikinis, etc., etc. I spent my time bummed out trying to organize. He spent his time making money, hanging out in his own shop and chattin' up the chicks.

Was I brain dead, or what? I don't have any explanation.

Today, I'm still working 40 hours a week at a high-stress job that sucks, trying to keep it together. He sold the shop, and retired to the west coast of Mexico. Who was the dumb ass here? There's nothing wrong with somebody trying to "exploit" the young writers by selling fat caps and stuff, just NOT ON YOUR SITE WITHOUT PAYING YOU FOR IT. Shit, you're providing them with a forum and a commercial venue. They gotta pay for that. Simple.

Ultimately, of course, the consumer of the product pays the bills. That's cool. It's just the way the world works. Nobody rides for free (LOL, except tramps until they get caught.) If somebody can sell stuff cheaper on their site than you can on your site because they aren't paying any advertising costs, then they are ripping you off for the value of the advertising you provide them.

I used to think that the idea of a commune or collective was a cool idea, until it occurred to me that the people doing the work were getting ripped off for their share of the PROFIT. Why should I work for low wages, when I can be self-employed and making the profit from the job? It's not easy, but it is definately possible. My buddy sends me postcards from the sunny beaches of Mexico every Christmas, the prick.

Personally, I think a commercial section is a cool idea. I want to be able to order cool shit straight off the net, pay by credit card or PayPal. How difficult can this be? You guys know all about computers and shit. SET IT UP, charge them by the month, and let's rock.

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kabar,

its not that we're against capitalism or making a buck. what you're suggesting is the equivelant of your buddy setting up a big board on the wall of his shop where he charges other surf shops to advertise, potentialy taking business from himself.

as it stands today, 12oz is just a message board, but that is a temporary state. in the past, as well as in the future, it will be an all-encompassing graffiti empire so to speak. to allow others to advertise, even for a fee, would be like shooting yourself in the foot as you're lacing up your shoes for the race. not to mention that the politics involved in graff are out of hand. its much easier to just say 'no' across the board, than to play nepotistic host to friends and associates.

 

and as far as skepticism of people making money off graff, its taken on a situational basis. for instance, there is a big difference between someone like susan from art crimes, who has dedicated the last 6 years of her life to promoting graffiti, trying to make a buck off of it, and johnny no name tagger from delaware that wants to put his one year of writing, and his 4 year business degree to work making a buck. maybe that is stiffeling capitalism, but any time you mix art and money, its always a messy event. if you've put in your work, then you you're allowed your spoils, but 'putting in work' in relation to graffiti, entails much more than coming up with a distrobution deal and a marketing campain.

 

of course these are just my opinions and not necesarily those of 12oz, but i think i did a decent job of summing it all up.

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Well said. However, if 12 oz. is the hot property in the World O' Graff (I haven't got a clue, I'm even greener than the aforementioned gentleman from Delaware) then I'd set a advertising price comensurate with your position, and charge what the traffic will bear. You can find ads for U.S. News and World Report in Time magazine, etc. A buck's a buck, to me. If you want to actively discourage advertisers, charge 'em out the kazoo. If they're still willing to pony up and their money is green, I'd say "The baby needs shoes!" 12 oz. is the best I've found, anywhere, anytime. I salute ya. I seriously doubt anybody's going to be able to dent y'all's armor unless everybody starts slackin'.

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sorry 12oz crew

 

hey on the IVO super thread the other day i like bumped the updats on graffitirock, this is before i took a deeper look into your site and realised that is like against your morals, sorry guys i didn't realise.

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Guest HOST18 DYM

Sorry but...

 

Advertisements are in our face 24/7 on billbords,train stations, trains, bus stops, tv, radio, websites, etc etc. I see buildings completely covered in giant ads of the newest movie out to the newest sports drink. Almost the same way graffiti covers whole areas of the city. What makes the ads "OK" is that money is involved. Graffiti is probably the last true freedom of speech. Graffiti is free, free for the public to see regardless of what the public thinks of it. Companies such as 12oz sell graffiti in one way or another. I'm not exactly saying what 12oz does is wrong. Its pretty smart, taking something that is free and making a buck off of it. However I don't agree with the fact that 12oz's ideas are based on the same ideas that building owners have: If you aint paying get it off my wall.

By the way, about a year and a half ago I ordered some shit from 12oz, never got it, I called a few times and only got the excuse that they are having problems getting caps from Germany? The last time I called the phone line was disconnected. You guys still owe me.

Too bad I don't have anything to advertise.

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Re: Sorry but...

 

Originally posted by HOST18 DYM

Its pretty smart, taking something that is free and making a buck off of it.

 

However I don't agree with the fact that 12oz's ideas are based on the same ideas that building owners have: If you aint paying get it off my wall.

 

1st This web site generates exactly ZERO (0) income. None.

 

2nd This isn't a city wall, or a 'public' site. We have the right and ability to exclude anyone we want for any reason we see fit. We are nice enough to try to provide explanations for our policies, but we're under no obligation to do so.

 

3rd I don't know what happened to your order. I know that 7th Heaven had problems getting German caps for a long time. I also know that 7th Heaven went out of business.

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Guest HOST18 DYM

Re: Re: Sorry but...

 

Originally posted by Smart

 

1st This web site generates exactly ZERO (0) income. None.

 

2nd This isn't a city wall, or a 'public' site. We have the right and ability to exclude anyone we want for any reason we see fit. We are nice enough to try to provide explanations for our policies, but we're under no obligation to do so.

 

3rd I don't know what happened to your order. I know that 7th Heaven had problems getting German caps for a long time. I also know that 7th Heaven went out of business.

 

I'm not saying this site makes you money, even though I'm not sure if thats completely true. However 12oz does make money off of graffiti with the Magazines, mail order etc. Yes this isn't a city wall and you do have the "right" to exclude anyone (-enforcment-) for any reason you see fit. I think business owners would agree with your attitude. 'It's my wall and I don't want you writing on it, I'm calling the police' (-enforcment-). Sounds just like 'It's my site and I don't want certain things said or done on it'. Either way it's taking a public voice (the people) and hushing it. I understand where you guys are coming from, I honestly do but something you need to realize is that business and graffiti don't mix well. You don't want people advertising anything that could be considered your competition because then your pockets get hurt.

Even though this is 12oz's site this isn't the place to tell people what to say, you did make a public forum after all. I totally agree with the rules against dropping names, giving addresses and whatever other personal info on another writer is given out. That's protection of someones safety and/or freedom. But what your suggesting is protection of your profits off of graffiti. I know you wont agree with me. I'm looking at this from a point of view of 'freedom of speech'. Your looking at it from a point of view of freedom of making a buck and not having anyone get in your way not even those who give you the buck.

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Strike 2

 

There is no mail-order business. The magazines rarely cover their own production costs. This IS NOT a 'public forum'.

 

We don't censor shit because we are worried about some non-existant profits. We don't allow advertising because we don't want one kid being ripped off by another kid on our board, there-by dragging our name into an argument in which we have no interest. We are protecting our reputation (whatever that's worth) not our pocket books. The moderators here recieve NO compensation. Mr. Raven shells out $1000 a month, on average, just to keep this site alive.

 

Do you think we only put out about on issue every year or so because we're too stingy to put out more? Does that even make sense? Don't you realize that the reason every release date on every magazine is pushed back at least a month is to give us some more time to scrape together the money to pay the printer? I can assure you that if 12oz. Prophet generated profit, we would have issues on the news stand every other month.

 

This isn't a public forum, that's why you have to register, and click 'agree' when you are presented with our forum rules. We don't charge you to be here, but we are no different than a 'pay for porn' site. Members Only. I've said it before but it bears repetition: This is Raven's house, if he says "no crack smoking" then we, as the moderators and Raven's friends, are going to kick anyone out of the house who is smoking crack, or dropping names or advertising.

 

Originally posted by HOST18 DYM

I'm looking at this from a point of view of 'freedom of speech'. Your looking at it from a point of view of freedom of making a buck and not having anyone get in your way not even those who give you the buck.

 

What 'buck'? Do you make any money off of graffiti? If not, then why is it so inconceivable that we might also do this for free?

 

 

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. You're telling us what's wrong with the way you imagine things to be. I'm telling you things are not that way. This is a non-argument. You we're wrong about the position you have placed us in without first hand knowledge. I will not waste my time arguing with a know nothing know-it-all.

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