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Ironlak

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  1. Ironlak

    Spray Paint

    Hey Hua, If you have a list of colours and batch no's can you email them through to ironlak@avtpaints.com we keep records of all batches, not just our QC documents but customer feedback to see if there is any consistency so if you can let us know the colours, batch no and issue we'd be happy to look into it. Regarding manufacturing we're not based in Guangdong, we're based in a inland province, that remoteness gives us protection and security from IP issue's. Our head chemist is a very honest and trustworthy guy, I've know him for 8 years now and he has a lot of integrity, all of his technical team that have any significant understanding are family members of his. This way anyone who isn't technically inclined has limited access to our IP, and when raw materials come in they are all just coded, there is no way for anyone to know what is what really they just know to mix X amount of A & B together. its how it has to be and we haven't had any IP leakage in the past 3 years since all the other brands started popping up, its like having a life partner you have to trust someone, but its important to know whom you can trust. As for the previous business partner we always knew it was a risk and would probably happen eventually, but sometimes those are risks you have to weigh up in life. We're in a very good position now and feel our IP and plans are well protected, it takes more planning and consideration but when you consider the girth of China's manufacturing many companies still have a lot of success protecting their IP there. Its actually surprising how active the government is on the ground in ensuring IP is protected, they have a long way to go but from what I see on the ground its more than lip service, eradicating something this well entrenched however will take a long time so its better you take steps to protect yourself from exposure. Its interesting you raise other markets for production, and you are right there are other emerging markets that in future will be more attractive but have present drawbacks as you noted, we actually looked at one of the countries you mentioned before we moved to China several years ago. The thing is you also need to consider what you are manufacturing, some of those markets have other limitations such as land size, geography and population so while they will be appealing to some companies like say the High Tech industry, they're going to be less appealing for a paint company like us. If we were producing microprocessors or something else that was tech related we would have been in Vietnam 3 years ago but looking at what we do there is only so much benefit to moving. Labour only makes up a small portion of our products costs, when you think about fluctuations in currencies, oil, steel prices and that our pigments come from all over the world there are just too many factors beyond labour and its something I think people don't really consider. Raw material costs are high and its a consumable not designer handbags so margins are lower and competition is fierce. I'm actually really surprised when you think about it spray paint prices haven't moved really in 10 years in the Graffiti market where as you look at spray paint in Bunnings or Home Depot they have steadily climbed along with the price of a can of coke. I agree Chinese labour won't get any cheaper as they look to broaden their middle class (a good thing for stabilising their economy - as the west should take note with our shrinking middle classes) our cost risk here isn't too high as I explained because labour factors into a small percent of production, we're more at risk of other costs fluctuating like gas prices etc. I can't speak for the European brands but I would think that raw material costs make up a similar percentage of their product costs, so while their labour costs may be higher (I would imagine as is their efficiency) its not going to make their products overly more expensive than ours. The real advantage of China for us is that its centrally located globally, and we're away from the prying eyes of competitors (even those within China) Cheers
  2. Ironlak

    Spray Paint

    Hua Guofang What is it you were struggling with in terms of consistency? I’m a little surprised but I’d be interested to know to be honest. We have guys like Tues, Jurne and Gary testing every single batch of paint before they are released and Tues is at our factory every other month as well. In the past few years we really went to work on our QC procedures, these days if something doesn’t measure up to our standards, we won’t release it for sale. It’s just not worth having unhappy customers. We’ll hold it in our warehouse and eventually send it back to China to be recycled. You said “Based on my experience in China and with manufacturing there's a good chance that the companies don't release the factory ID because Chinese factories are notorious for selling out for quick and easy profit. In other words if you found out where AVT was doing their production you could go to them and have them run an extra 20k cans on the end of an AVT run, using the same pigment tech and ratios as well as valves, etc. and then flog them off at a cheaper price undercutting AVT's market. You sell yours as Ebay cheapos without anything invested in the brand and you free ride off AVT's R&D as well as their brand, depending on how you sell your kit.” That is a common problem with OEM manufacturing in China. All these other brands are using a similar formulation to an older version of Ironlak, though with lower coverage and still containing toluene etc. This is because one of our former shareholders was doing dodgy side deals in a small factory. So even with your own factory you can experience problems. We gave the previous shareholder the flick and tightened things up to protect our intellectual property better. If we didn't tighten things up on our end there would be all these Sugar and marker copies out there as well. We’re at the point where we will even produce our nozzles in house just so competitors can’t copy or don’t have as easy a path to copying us. You asked about constraints of water on the finish; we made Sugar matt(e) because Ironlak is gloss. We’re trying to offer products that cater to different tastes. Hal. You mentioned a valve issue with Chinese made paint. It’s something we experienced a few years ago in a batch of Roarke but I don’t believe we’ve experienced it in about 3 years. It’s actually not a valve problem but rather a formulation problem. I don’t really want to say what it is as I’d rather our competitors work it out for themselves, but I thought you’d like to know. You mentioned the quality varying every few months, in all honesty we’ve been very consistent the past 2-3 years in our production. Regarding colour match; we match our colours under 3 forms of light in a light box. The only reason a colour wouldn’t match now would be if we happened to slightly change the colour of a specific colour to better compliment the overall colour palette. You mentioned coverage, in terms of coverage and we’ve done the tests and are happy for others to test themselves but this speaks for itself to be honest: http://ironlak.com/2014/03/coverage-comparison/ FYI Zenith is actually made in China as well. If you can actually demonstrate to me how a German brand is superior to Ironlak, I’ll give you 96 cans for helping us improve our products. It has to be a legit claim (if you can substantiate it, you can take Ironlak, Sugar, Yard Master, whatever you want). We’re always happy to listen and learn, I’ve seen German paints change colour, exhibit massive amounts of overspray and have cans block, as well as gunk at the start. It’s all relative, that’s not to say they don’t make great products, they do, (credit where its due) we just believe our products are better. Most products have short comings, and that’s consumer products in general. You mentioned paint wiping off with acetone, this will happen with just about any paint. If you find one of the key solvents and it will logically break down the paint film. You could do this with just about any paint around the world, aerosol or otherwise. As for the fading, other Chinese paints may fade, Ironlak doesn’t anymore. We’ll be posting evidence of this shortly. It’s been a three year testing process for us to find the right pigments and it’s also why Ironlak is more expensive than other Chinese made imitators. We have evidence that about 75% of our range lasts for at least 5 years. The remaining 25% is what we've spent the last three years working on. It took about a year of testing to find the right pigments and two years of testing to confirm the UV stability in those pigments etc. These new pigments have been in our paint for at least six months now. We wanted to do further testing before making any claims that we couldn’t substantiate. Evertrailer77 You are right about these types of things being around for industrial use previously. We adapted the base of Sugar from an industrial product that we started producing about five years ago, but that adaptation isn’t easy and took a long time. Graffiti writers have the broadest demands in terms of a product’s capabilities and performance. Industrial products usually have to focus on 1-2 points and others are less relevant, because of this it’s no easy feat. Hope that's clarified some of the comments and queries you've had over the past 6 months. Cheers
  3. Ironlak

    Spray Paint

    One last thing we did weigh up using a European spec Vs using a US spec valve but decided on the European valve spec for various reasons. That being said NY Fats will still fit in that valve same with Ironlak. Thanks
  4. Ironlak

    Spray Paint

    Guys, Regarding Yard Master we don't have too many basic colours and this includes metallics because we felt with Ironlak and Kolour it was a bit redundant to be honest. We've kept it to a limited but well balanced range of discontinued but previously loved classics. We've got about another 10 colours we haven't yet released but we'll just gauge feedback on the range first. We had a number of US freight writers involved in developing and testing the product. It uses a slightly modified resin from what we use in Ironlak and the properties in the paint we felt are geared towards what freight or train writers in general will want in a paint. Its a little bit higher pressure than Ironlak, but we were conscious of having something that will allow you to finish up as quick as you can without compromising on cleanliness and can control. It will be a little more expensive than Ironlak, because it is a 12oz can and we've had to add properties to it that add to the cost but make it more appealing to freight writers in general. Hopefully its something writers will enjoy using. Hal,I think it was you that mentioned Chinese made paints bleeding in pinks and purples. Test a couple of ours, we Ironed that out of our product about 6 months ago if i'm not mistaken. We're also finalising testing on the UV resistance of our pinks and purples which do fade faster than our European counterparts. We've been working on this for a while with Dupont whom have been doing the testing for us. Our goal here is for our pinks, purples and mid browns (around 25% of our range fades faster than it should) to last as long as other brands, obviously certain pigments have better life expectancy than others when it comes to fading, so comparing a pink and a blue is apples and oranges as a blue will always outlast a pink, but our goal is for our pigments to hold up as long as other brands. When we have confirmation on this we'll make an announcement and make sure writers are well informed on which cans they can use with confidence that won't fade. We'll also publish the results provided by Dupont when that happens. All the best Ironlak
  5. Guys, We haven't raised our prices at all, our suppliers keep increasing the costs of our raw materials and we keep absorbing those increases because we know how important it is to writers to be able to have affordable paint and be out painting as much as possible. If the prices are increasing you need to raise that with your local retailer. clizclean & Rustofills, I find it hard to believe we purposely short shipped a carton on you and then ignored you. Generally we're pretty good at going above and beyond to satisfy our customers. Drop us an email ironlak@avtpaints.com and ask for Turner he'll make sure your complaint is looked into and if we did short ship a carton we'll happily sort it out. To the guy that said Ironlak was watery, that's pretty surpising because based on the feedback we get many people buy Ironlak because of how well it covers in comparison to other brands. Thanks
  6. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    Suds, You may work for a "Distribution company" but one of your in house brands is Razor, its not like MTN for example where you are acting as a distributor for another brand, its your own brand, so really your splitting hairs. As for the undercutting Ironlak was never ever sold for $8.50 in Sydney (we won't call you dishonest just clearly misinformed) and we lowered our prices at the request of most of the Sydney retailers that we're losing business hand over fist, sacrificing our margins to support them is called loyalty its good business practice. I'm sure if you ring them they'll all a test to that. As for Brisbane no one is selling at $4.00 a pop, $6.00 yeah perhaps but that was happening long before your store opened so don't pull the victim card, you're running weekly sales selling below that and we haven't seen a single Brisbane retailer retaliate and match you so you could hardly say we've instigated a price war in Brisbane. All you told was your version of the truth and at the end of the day everyone has their own. We'll even give you the courtesy of having the last word, we know how badly you crave it. Peace
  7. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    Suds, stop running your mouth. People can use whatever they want, why are you on an Ironlak thread anyway? The reality is that you used to be cool with Ironlak and everyone it employed and now you work for another brand, which is cool you need to feel your family but don't come on here running your mouth with bullshit. You work for a company that is using old Ironlak formula, don't front man at least be honest about it. We know your product, its pro's, con's and everything in between. Who are you to call us out when you discount your own brands price in Brisbane to under cut Ironlak? You're a hypocrite, at least look yourself in the mirror and be honest about it. You're guilty of the same things you're call others out about, and its only because you now work for a brand of paint that is in competition to Ironlak. We made graffiti affordable and accessible to those who didn't want to rack, to those who do, cool do your thing and for those that didn't they had Ironlak, now you've jumped on the bandwagon. When have we ever jumped on a razor thread and talked shit? Never, because we worry about our own stuff, perhaps you should do the same. iorts3, we used to use the same paint as you man, the cheapest grimiest shit we could find. In the end we started a paint company to give writers quality, affordable paint, that's all. So don't think for a minute we don't know where you are at, we used gutter paint that was worse than Wal-Mart paint, and the reality is that people can still rock decent shit with Wal-Mart paint, so if that's your thing go for it, we just want to see people painting, but if you want a bit more coverage and precision Ironlak is there. Peace
  8. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    Overtime, Thanks for exercising some serious common sense and making a rational argument. Shoot us an email via the website and we'll send you out a T-Shirt. Cheers
  9. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    NoExceptions, our paint doesn't keep increasing in price. Check any online store its still $3.95 a pop, and we haven't introduced a price increase in the 6 years we've been operating. But I guess ignorance is bliss. On the subject of the DRC that yellow is definitely showing the signs of aging and its a yellow, where as the Hoer was a flirt and is expected to fade. I_fell_off_the_bike, if we removed the caps then no its unlikely the price would go down, caps are expensive for writers and relatively cheap for us (though not fractions of a cent) to get in large quantities and we're just trying to offer writers more value, and more bang for their buck. We stopped with the large clear lids, because they were a waste of plastic, unnecessary and just plain ugly. We understand your point though and we have a solution to this coming real soon.
  10. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    CAN-KILLER, So do matador and Soviet in Ironlak. You missed the whole point which we explained pretty clearly, when you mix white with Red you get a pink or purple and with that white pigment comes the fading, the straight red pigment on its own isn't being attacked by white pigment so is under far less pressure and means a straight red will last substantially longer. You mix it with white and the white pigment reflects light straight back onto the red pigment breaking down its UV resistance far quicker. williemayeshayes Glad you liked the paint, Ironlak performs pretty well in cold conditions, all brands suffer in extreme conditions which is why the other brand lost pressure, that being said Ironlak performs better than most.
  11. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    Swindle, It does get a bit redundant, but these are the things you have to do for your customers. At the end of the day they keep us employed so if we have to explain the same thing to every single customer then we will, at least this way people will be educated and in the know, rather than just believing bullshit and rumors. As for the slimy drain, not surprised at all man, Ironlak goes over pretty much anything haha. Cheers
  12. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    Edward Orenthal Norton, You don't really add UV protection to paint, yes you can add some UV stabilizers but really paint fades due to two reasons first one being the paint film and the second being the pigment. Basically if you look at an old piece done with Ironlak you will notice the film / finish looks good still. With the pigments, red pigments don't have the same level of UV resistance that other colours do, so as we said regardless of what brand you use these will be the first to fade. If you add white into the colour (in the case of say pink) you only compound the problem more because white is the only colour that absorbs and reflects light, most other colours do one or the other, what this means is that when Red pigment is mixed with white its under twice as much pressure because the white pigment is reflecting light on the red pigment. Red pigment already has less UV stability than other colours so when you combine these factors it explains simply why pinks and purples fade faster than other colours. I hope that explains the situation. If you use the Heat piece on the previous page you can see that the fills haven't faded at all, nor have the blue's and green's in the background, its the pink background and the midnight (only red based blue we have) for outline that are the problems, which have been improved significantly but as explained above in any brand these will undergo problems eventually. Thanks
  13. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    Asian Eater, There were a handful of colours that faded, not the whole range, produce these same vibrant colours in any brand and they will fade, that is just the nature of some of those colours, we've done some things to improve them, but these colours will just not hold up in any brand no matter what you do. As for your comments about Walmart paint they are pretty weak man, compare our black, our white or any colour produced in the Walmart brand and you'll get the same result Ironlak will probably outlast them, as someone said a page earlier even MTN fades, but it just depends on the colour as to how quickly it fades. I personally live in the Australian version of Arizona and I can tell you that you put any brand of paint on a surface that is a pink, purple or some other mid town containing both white and red, and it will NOT last longer than about 6-8 months tops. If you want your shit to last a lifetime pick a different colour.
  14. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    seoren, I believe the MSDS is available on our website and the Toluene content is around 2% so 312gm x 2% is about 6 grams roughly. But to answer your question this isn't what causes the smell, we don't actually add any toluene that comes already in our resin, but as its present we need to declare it on the MSDS. As for the winter comment, we realise that other brands do things differently but we also believe that the "technology" is already in the product today we just had someone use the Tar and Normal Ironlak in some extremely cold temps and the results we're pretty impressive, so in that regard we feel like the product already does what it needs to do, from what we've been told its actually pretty good in the cold compared with other brands and this is from credible writers in Canada and the Midwest where it really counts. iorts3 we're actually playing with some fragrance adjustments at the moment to reduce the smell, the changes will probably start filtering through into stock towards the end of Spring at a guess. Thanks
  15. Ironlak

    Ironlak

    Another suggestion is just use colours that don't fade, there are only a handful of colours that actually fade, as these colours will fade in any brand. So regardless of what brand you use stick with colours that are going to take a lot longer to fade if your shit is going to run for a long time.
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