Your Local Spy

Newly declassified documents reveal that an active member of Students for a Democratic Society and Port Militarization Resistance in Washington state was actually an informant for the US military. The man everyone knew as “John Jacob” was in fact John Towery, a member of the Force Protection Service at Fort Lewis. The military’s role in the spying raises questions about possibly illegal activity. The Posse Comitatus law bars the use of the armed forces for law enforcement inside the United States.

discuss

U.S. Army admits to spying on Ron Paul meetups. Illegal, but nothing was done.

on a slight tangent, im half way through 'the lives of others' (movie about the stasi in east germany in the 80's)

makes you think... DHS hired on markus wolf as a consultant a few years back to work on ID plans and what not. who would of thunk it.... a man barred from entering the USA, a huge player in secret comintern and stasi operations, hired as a consultant to DHS. what do you think they have in mind???????????????

Peace and security for der fatherland!!!!

http://www.aclu-mn.org/downloads/homelandsecurity.pdf

Why not hire the best?

As far as this goes, it's unusual in an official capacity...but I bet there's a lot of domestic military intelligence gathering done off the books.

posse comitatus was murdered by GWB... it's dead, let it go... we have always been at war with Eastasia.

read about this on other sites today. real shit. infiltration is an oooold tactic. don't say shit unless you want the feds to know.

The feds are one thing, they fall under law enforcement and are allowed to collect. This is a case of military, which is not allowed to collect or to even conduct law enforcement operations against US citizens per posse comitatus. That is a direct violation of fedral law. Also the military collecting intellegence on a US citizen or citizens is in violation of DOD Intellegence Oversight program and Executive Order 12333. Only FBI and NSA have the ability to collect with just cause.

on a slight tangent, im half way through 'the lives of others' (movie about the stasi in east germany in the 80's)

Just passing by to say that that is one of my favourite movies (heh, you can actually see some 1UP in the end of the movie).

The feds are one thing, they fall under law enforcement and are allowed to collect. This is a case of military, which is not allowed to collect or to even conduct law enforcement operations against US citizens per posse comitatus. That is a direct violation of fedral law. Also the military collecting intellegence on a US citizen or citizens is in violation of DOD Intellegence Oversight program and Executive Order 12333. Only FBI and NSA have the ability to collect with just cause.

Sooooooo...not to be a dick or anything since I actually DO respect you and the work you do, but....what's your point? I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time it's happened.

I think the government has been doing whatever it wants to do for a while and it gets away with it quite often. They aren't stupid. The people they work for, on the other hand, I'm not entirely sure about. How many people questioned the PATRIOT Act or the formation of the DHS? Answer- hardly anyone, the timing=misdirection.

Let's put it this way- when the DHS was formed it basically put a whole bunch of new cops on the streets of SF (which is a city with a pretty heavy federal presence). I saw that first hand. I also saw the National Guard patrolling SF prety heavy for about a month after 9/11.

Originally those guys were INS or Secret Service (mint/Fed Res security) or some other part of the alphabet soup. But suddenly they had these new uniforms and cars and are stopping people every now and then...yet no one really said anything about it. That, to me, is not too different from military intel operating here. It's just another one of those things that happens, and 99.999% of the people out there aren't aware it's not kosher.

WA peace group spied on by military.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXHqsV7_c5Q

Sooooooo...not to be a dick or anything since I actually DO respect you and the work you do, but....what's your point? I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time it's happened.

 

I think the government has been doing whatever it wants to do for a while and it gets away with it quite often. They aren't stupid. The people they work for, on the other hand, I'm not entirely sure about. How many people questioned the PATRIOT Act or the formation of the DHS? Answer- hardly anyone, the timing=misdirection.

 

Let's put it this way- when the DHS was formed it basically put a whole bunch of new cops on the streets of SF (which is a city with a pretty heavy federal presence). I saw that first hand. I also saw the National Guard patrolling SF prety heavy for about a month after 9/11.

 

Originally those guys were INS or Secret Service (mint/Fed Res security) or some other part of the alphabet soup. But suddenly they had these new uniforms and cars and are stopping people every now and then...yet no one really said anything about it. That, to me, is not too different from military intel operating here. It's just another one of those things that happens, and 99.999% of the people out there aren't aware it's not kosher.

The Kent Shootings are not really the same thing. The National Guard governed by the state and sometimes used to control riots.(Not that I am saying the Kent State shootings where justified, that is why they now have non lethal training and tactics.) That is not law enforcement.

In this case a military intelligence officer was collecting information on a peaceful group (violation of the Intelligence Oversight Act) for law enforcement purposes to issue warrants and arrests (violation of posse comitatus). I guess that my point is that I am upset over this. As a professional in what I do I was always taught that collection of intelligence on US citizens was wrong. Wrong because as a National Military we have no right to turn on the people and ideas that we defend. Also I guess I am really upset that instead of collecting on REAL homeland threats and terrorist groups (National Socialists, White Separatists, Organized Crime, Religious Fanatics) it seems that DHS is more concerned with peaceful law abiding or small time groups. I read somewhere that DHS thinks that the biggest threat to the US is the Animal Liberation Front....really?? A group that has no human deaths and only civil disobedience and public property damage is a threat?? Not all the al-Qaeda sleeper cells, Aryan Fronts, or Montana Militamen plotting to kill our president and our way of life? Also the more and more I read every organization that works for the DHS sound more and more like they work for White Nationalists. Seeking to arrest and detain people for the crime of being a different color.

That is my point I guess.

I am ashamed that my fellow professionals have done what they know is wrong, in the name of "homeland defense". And really I want everyone to know that this is wrong

Military and National Intelligence Agencies should not be pointing the all seeing eye on ourselves, but in the real direction of threats against our country and freedoms.

Good stuff Random. I recall you talking about your dad once and how respected

he is/was because he did his job the right way. Keep that perspective. You swore

on a sacred oath to protect and defend, glad you're abiding by it.

Homeland Security is nothing more than a front for aiding organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center (real racists in my opinion) for the benefit of political agenda.

R@ndom, one word: Ideological and political/power agendas.

I am aware of similar situations of another country where (non-military) security professionals are sent abroad to sabotage commercial interests of others. Now some may argue all's fair in the national interest. However that hides the issue of personal relations between those who gave the order and the private interests that benefit after the job is done. Tax dollars being spent to support personal interests, put lives at risk and fuck over developing countries.

That's the shit that gets my back up.

"I guess I am really upset that instead of collecting on REAL homeland threats and terrorist groups (National Socialists, White Separatists, Organized Crime, Religious Fanatics) it seems that DHS is more concerned with peaceful law abiding or small time groups. I read somewhere that DHS thinks that the biggest threat to the US is the Animal Liberation Front....really?? A group that has no human deaths and only civil disobedience and public property damage is a threat?? Not all the al-Qaeda sleeper cells, Aryan Fronts, or Montana Militamen plotting to kill our president and our way of life? Also the more and more I read every organization that works for the DHS sound more and more like they work for White Nationalists. Seeking to arrest and detain people for the crime of being a different color."

i dont think national socialists, montana militiamen, the animal liberation front or white separatists are a threat to US national security at all.

I dont think DHS works for the 'white nationalists, i think most of the white nationalists work for DHS.

i dont think national socialists, montana militiamen, the animal liberation front or white separatists are a threat to US national security at all.

Yet they are responsible for most of the terrorist acts comitted in our country (according to the Feds, and actual data). Plus that whole Oklahoma City thing...

Southern Poverty Law Center (real racists in my opinion).

Hmmm... polly the ACLU too, and the Innocence Project. Damn nigger lovers. Except the parts where the ACLU represents the Klan and the IP gets white dudes out of jail... But none of that is the SPLC, right? Because 'hate' should be unchecked and unmonitored, this is fucking 'Merica, right? Where's my free taco dammit!

i saw some spies at mcdonalds today, just like everyday hahaha

Yet they are responsible for most of the terrorist acts comitted in our country (according to the Feds, and actual data). Plus that whole Oklahoma City thing...

 

 

 

Hmmm... polly the ACLU too, and the Innocence Project. Damn nigger lovers. Except the parts where the ACLU represents the Klan and the IP gets white dudes out of jail... But none of that is the SPLC, right? Because 'hate' should be unchecked and unmonitored, this is fucking 'Merica, right? Where's my free taco dammit!

white nationalists commit all the terrorist acts in the country? wtf. talk about fear mongering. its, funny though. the lefties want to blame everything on racists and capitalists and the bushies want to blame everything on muslims.

while i do not condone the acts that timothy mcveigh was convicted of, i'd like for you to know the reason why these acts were committed. oklahoma city was a direct reaction to the killing and burning of 80 men women and children in mt carmel, texas in 1993. the building in which the federal government planned the massacre was the murrah federal building in oklahoma city. its not unreasonable at all to see that if the government is going to engage in terrorism, one day someone will strike back. its called 'blow back.' its not at all unlike the US government posting military bases in some 140 parts of the world, occupying them and expecting nothing to come from their occupation. they engage in this behavior, then act all innocent when they get a violent reaction. while i believe acts of terrorism are cowardly and do not condone them, it might pay to understand WHY certain people do certain things. and in some cases, such as 9/11, oklahoma city, you might find that they were in direct reaction to US government policy. if we had a government only doing what it is supposed to do, protecting against invasion, etc, there would be no foreign meddling or federal police actions against citizens.

so, aside from this oklahoma city bombing, what terrorist acts have 'white nationalists,' 'militia's,' or any variety of groups committed?

believe it or not, i think overall the ACLU is a great organization. i think sometimes they take a skewed view of separation of church and state, but my main contention is the ACLU and guns. they refused to talk about it for years and recently came out in favor of the collective interpretation of the second amendment which is entirely, ENTIRELY the wrong view. they know it, everyone knows it, but they are statist lefties, what do you expect.

the SPLC is an entirely different organization. according to this bunch, (who also supports victim disarmament, which affects minorities WAY more than it affects 'whites')there is a rabid violent klansmen hiding behind every tree in america, waiting hungrily to catch the next black person who walks by and put their head on a stake. their 'reports' about racism in america are always centered on white racist people and not on muslim, black or any other organizations, although you occasionally hear them talk about them or see a little thumb tack on their 'hate map.' im also not wanting to touch on my main contention with this bunch and that is their attacks on the confederate flag. long story short, i want them to start banning the american flag and christian cross as the american flag condoned slavery MUCH longer than the few years the confederate flag did. but this is a whole other topic.

why should 'hate' be any different than any other crime? look, if you rape and kill someone you should be punished accordingly. you should not receive a lighter sentence merely because the person was of the same color, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity or tribe. if a person is of a different race, you receive a much harsher punishment as this is a 'hate' crime. murder is murder, doesnt matter if you are white, black, blue, green, whether you are wearing a suit and tie or standing out front of your 30' mobile home in your ho chi minh flip flops and mickey mouse underwear.

a crime is a direction violation of a persons rights. force is initiated. a thought, (racism) is not a crime. it may be silly, but it is not a crime. until the 'racists' or 'white nationalists' start shooting innocent people (yes, people, i dont care who they shoot, they should still be hung on the town square in my opinion) then you lock them up. initiatives to stamp out 'hate' would result in the entire population of the US being locked up for thinking various 'hateful' things.

i have a problem with my own government collecting information, infiltrating and monitoring by surveillance, etc, various groups of americans engaging in peaceable activities. it is legal to own guns in this country (at least now it is) and to gather together and train with them, just as it is legal to gather together and talk about saving the rain forests or how communism is great. the instant someone else's person or property is violated, then you lock them up. this is supposed to be a free country. we should not have Die Staatssicherheit in america focusing on peaceable americans who have committed no crime, whether it is gun owners, animal rights activists or union activists.

Wasn't that Elohim City a FBI/Southern Poverty Law Center operation?

Oh yeah, it was. The guy at the top was both a Nazi and a federal informant, and

the woman close to the top was an agent....How convenient.

dooooooood the splc is teh aweeessomez

from reading all of this, ive got a few points to make and a few questions to ask.

how and why do we find out about this "monitoring" that goes on?

I highly doubt citizens are discovering the identity of these spies, so how does the info get out? am i correct in saying it is the government who "declassifies" this information? Now you must ask yourself why would the government want to do this?(declassify info that they know will piss people off) Unless there is some law saying these things must be brought out eventually I suspect they are doing this to either

a) distract from other monitoring going on

b) to keep tabs on everyone who is ballsy enough to act out in retaliation to better asses how many people are willing to revolt, to what extent and other information

c) to scare people into not behaving against the grain or however you want to put it. would you train your peers in guerrilla warfare if you knew that even non violent peace protests were being monitored?

If the government is saying the ALF is a serious threat to the nations security, what does that say?

I think it says that the government is audacious enough to pull little tricks like this. what I mean is why would the government tell us who the biggest threat is and tell us what they are doing about it? I think they are just talking up the severity of the ALF and seeing as they are easily manageable, it makes the government look like they are doing a much better job.

and much much much more serious, i saw a INTERPOL van at a steve miller band concert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i type ALL that shit and nobody has anything to say about it?!?!?!?!

fuck this. im sticking to ch0

from reading all of this, ive got a few points to make and a few questions to ask.

 

how and why do we find out about this "monitoring" that goes on?

 

I highly doubt citizens are discovering the identity of these spies, so how does the info get out? am i correct in saying it is the government who "declassifies" this information? Now you must ask yourself why would the government want to do this?(declassify info that they know will piss people off) Unless there is some law saying these things must be brought out eventually I suspect they are doing this to either

a) distract from other monitoring going on

b) to keep tabs on everyone who is ballsy enough to act out in retaliation to better asses how many people are willing to revolt, to what extent and other information

c) to scare people into not behaving against the grain or however you want to put it. would you train your peers in guerrilla warfare if you knew that even non violent peace protests were being monitored?

 

If the government is saying the ALF is a serious threat to the nations security, what does that say?

 

I think it says that the government is audacious enough to pull little tricks like this. what I mean is why would the government tell us who the biggest threat is and tell us what they are doing about it? I think they are just talking up the severity of the ALF and seeing as they are easily manageable, it makes the government look like they are doing a much better job.

 

 

 

and much much much more serious, i saw a INTERPOL van at a steve miller band concert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can get declassified and unclassified information through a request to the government. they have to give it to you according to the freedom of information act.

that is how these students for democracy guys found out about this guy. they requested information about anarchists through the freedom of information act and stumbled on an email.

we (the government) declassifies information cause we have to according to DOD policy. information only has a shelf life for classification for so long, after that time its either declassified automatically or reviewed and classified again. so probably who ever didnt think that this one little email (which happens a lot) was not that important to classify so it automatically declassified and was free rein according to the freedom of information act.

one thing that people that i work with dont get...is that sometimes unclassified information is the most critical information because with enough of the information, people can pretty much piece together what is going on.

 

one thing that people that i work with dont get...is that sometimes unclassified information is the most critical information because with enough of the information, people can pretty much piece together what is going on.

Exactly. Compartmentalization only works so far.

I would guess that you might agree (except for war plans and such), that we have a right to know such things.

one thing that people that i work with dont get...is that sometimes unclassified information is the most critical information because with enough of the information, people can pretty much piece together what is going on.

OS is far more trustworthy than 90% of sourced if you know how to use it properly and have been following it long and wide enough.

OS is far more trustworthy than 90% of sourced if you know how to use it properly and have been following it long and wide enough.

Unless its from some crazy African country, or the UN....:lol:

Chinese and Iranian are my daily comic relief. I used to love DPRK but it just became the same crazy dribble every day.

I read The Onion for the real low down!

is the onion worth checking out?

my english teacher told me i should check it out but i dont take her advice anymore after she convinced me to read Little Women.

but thats interesting to know about how stuff gets declassified and stuff.

how does one go about requesting this information? do you have to get a lawyer and register a formal request or can you just email them...

and how would the public know what to ask for?

do you just ask to hear about all kinds of random shit and hope something is actually real?

is the onion worth checking out?

 

my english teacher told me i should check it out but i dont take her advice anymore after she convinced me to read Little Women.

 

 

but thats interesting to know about how stuff gets declassified and stuff.

how does one go about requesting this information? do you have to get a lawyer and register a formal request or can you just email them...

 

and how would the public know what to ask for?

do you just ask to hear about all kinds of random shit and hope something is actually real?

FOIA.gov

FOIA.gov.tt

fixed.