Truth on War

After taking a long break from 12oz, I have come back to see that the board is filled with the usual bullshit...I'd like to know in what fantasy world you anti-war protesters are living. Let's take a walk down Reality Lane for a minute. The reality is inspections don't work and have never worked. If they did, why is it Iraq has been firing some of those Scud missiles at our troops that they repeatedly said they didn't have? Wait a sec. Our government might be lying to us about that story. How about this: wasn't it Iraq that said they would be arming their troops with some of those non-existent chemical munitions? Yep. Inspections work?

Forgive me, I'm missing the point. It's all about President Bush buying votes with oil, right? Funny how George Bush, Sr. was accused of that yet we still left Iraq and its oil fields. Funny how we haven't been getting gas for a dollar a gallon at the pump from Kuwaiti oil during the past twelve years. I guess we didn't steal their oil either. Here's a thought: maybe the Kuwaiti mission actually had something to do with the fact that Kuwait was invaded and the country's people were being slaughtered by Saddam Hussein. Nah, Bush, Sr. wouldn't have had humanitarian motives in mind, would he?

If you want to talk about buying votes with oil, we don't have to look back too far. Bill Clinton tapped the strategic oil reserves shortly before Al Gore's face-off with Bush. He said it was to Northeasterners with their heating bills. It had no effect on prices, but people were duped anyway. Or how about when Clinton began firing missiles into Iraq during the Monica Lewinsky scandal in 1998. Coincidence? Ask former Clinton advisors George Stephanopoulos and Dick Morris; both have come forward and stated that the goal of the bombings was to get the scandal off the front pages. If you think I'm lying, go check --Stephanopoulos' tell-all book would be a good starting point. And when you see that this is true, just think about all the Iraqis Clinton may have killed for such a self-serving purpose. After all, isn't that what you anti-war protesters are accusing Bush of doing? If that's not using oil as a ploy, what is?

And now it's time to talk about the French. Many war protesters believe the French are opposed to this war because of humanitarian concerns, and therefore, agree with the French. The truth is that the French Government could care less about war casualties. France just doesn't want us to discover what Iraqi scientists who have defected have claimed for years, which is that France has sold Iraq nuclear materials.

And for those of you who claim, as the Iraqi Government has when the issue periodically arose, that it was so they could build nuclear power plants for their people, wake up! Why would a country with a seemingly endless supply of oil need one of those dangerous nuclear plants?

You anti-war protesters accuse Bush of having petty motives for this war, yet you are so blind to the petty motives of the French. Here's what I want out of you anti-war protesters: Once the war ends, and we leave Iraq again without stealing their oil, and when we discover even more chemical munitions beyond what has already been discovered, and when we verify the Iraqi-French connection, which we already know exists, I want you all to hold rallies apologizing to Bush, acknowledging that he was right and you were wrong.

Of course, since you'll never do this, you can just wait for the big "I told you so" as demonstrated by Bush's re-election in 2004. God bless our troops.

~ssp

man...

no more war/politics threads please.

Yeah, Im sorry guys, havent posted in awhile and i figured my last post should be noteworthy...

~ssp

if they are such do-gooders (you say they went up in the gulf to help out Kuwait last time), then why don't they lift a finger for other countries in trouble, like in Africa?

whatever, though - bomb iraq.

all in all, i'm for and against the war, but then again... no one really knows whats goin on or callin the shots cept for bush and sadam.

you're out then, as in your last post? have a good one (life, day, whatever).

I am not a protester out in the streets and I am not a pacifist who believes any war is wrong. That said I have serious problems with not just the war but the Bush administration.

Yes Saddam is a terrible person and yes he needs to be dealt with. My main problem with this war is the lack of diplomacy we used to bring it about. Daily more and more countries are against us. If it was just France no one would care.

Do you know that Switzerland actually came out and said they don't think the war is a good idea and they felt the US was out of line? The Swiss who don't usually take sides on anything.

Today Russia said that the world was facing the worst global crisis since the cold war.

The US just told Iran that if their proxies interfere they would be considered combatants. Also we are threatening Syria for their actions of supplying arms to Iraq.

North Korea continues to fester. India and Pakistan are having serious issues.

On and on and on.....

bravo SSP, it was refreshing hearing someone on this message baord who isnt an anti-american.

the charlatan has spoken

tease droppin' "science".

"The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they succumb to it utterly and can never escape from it." - Goebbels

Originally posted by BROWNer

"The essence of propaganda consists in winning people over to an idea so sincerely, so vitally, that in the end they succumb to it utterly and can never escape from it." - Goebbels

isnt it funny that this could be applied to either of us, if not BOTH.

why is it that people who question our government are considered anti american? Thats one of the key rights that set us apart from other nations. you guys want a nation of sheep that does whatever the president (a guy who wasn't even elected) says?

pathetic.

saddam has weapons that are nowhere near the magnitude that the US has, why shouldn't the US be forced to disarm?

mr president, you're stupid and need to learn to open your mouth only when you've considered both sides of an issue.

Originally posted by bug

saddam has weapons that are nowhere near the magnitude that the US has, why shouldn't the US be forced to disarm?

yes, saddam doesnt have the fire power we have but that in no way means he cant kill tons of people.

and how the fuck are you gonna put the US and saddam in the same boat? are you soooo fucking blind to see what a horrible person this guy is?

Welcome back shameless...

Originally posted by mr_president

im stupid and havent considered both sides of the issue? how is that? if youre going to accuse me of that, please explain to me why you think that way, how have i not considered the other side? let's here it..

Originally posted by mr_president

why shouldn't the US be forced to disarm? that's a good question, and here's a good answer: because we need shit so that we can keep others in line. notice how we don't threaten our own people and go fuck up other countries because we are bored one day?

that was easy.

(and if you want to reply, do some research first on what the US has done "because we were bored one day"...and also look into the concept of yankee imperialism)

didn't even want to look into what i suggested, just snapped. so typical.

Originally posted by shameless self promotion

You anti-war protesters accuse Bush of having petty motives for this war, yet you are so blind to the petty motives of the French. Here's what I want out of you anti-war protesters: Once the war ends, and we leave Iraq again without stealing their oil, and when we discover even more chemical munitions beyond what has already been discovered, and when we verify the Iraqi-French connection, which we already know exists, I want you all to hold rallies apologizing to Bush, acknowledging that he was right and you were wrong.

earth to captain fucking make believe, WE HAVE NOT FOUND ANY 'CHEMICAL MUNITIONS'.

please stop making things up.

no one gives a shit if the french sold iraq nuclear anything, we GAVE iraq CHEMICAL and BIOLOGICAL weapons.

further more, france is one of about 180 countries that oppose this war. did they ALL sell iraq nuclear weapons and are now trying to cover it up?

honestly dude, did you just get some fucking pamphlet from some just-as-uninforned zealot, spitting this 'freedom fries' bullshit out for you? reading this stuff made me embaressed FOR you. if i ever suspected myself of such blindness, id take my own life and apologise to anyone i forced to listen to my bullshit.

the only thing this war will accomplish is the near universal distrust of america.

i cant believe i even bothered to reply to this hunk of shit.

in true american fas(cism)hion i should just close it...

grrrrrrrr - gerbles

Originally posted by uncle-boy

bravo SSP, it was refreshing hearing someone on this message baord who isnt an anti-american.

word.

A majority of these protestors seem to protest more because of Anti-Americanism/Bush/Globalization rather than peace.

since when is trying to insure that america is still fucking in existence ten years from now, 'un-american'??

apparently you all fail to understand the magnitude of the situation at hand. this is not about saddam, this is about actions wich lead the entire world to distrust us, and turn a whole continent into one giant 'anti-american' training camp.

Originally posted by Pistol

word.

 

A majority of these protestors seem to protest more because of Anti-Americanism/Bush/Globalization rather than peace.

thats just an argument againt the protestors themselves, not the subject they are protesting. besides, if they're anti-american, so what? what does that have to do with the fact that US shouldn't be attacking iraq?

holy fuck this thread is bizarre.

uncle boy- do you know anything about propaganda?

anything about the mechanics of propaganda? i doubt it bro. go to your

library and read at least a few books on propaganda/PR,

then try and play the slickster. stick to dance parties.

you guys are so in line with washington's language it's amazing.

patriotism is self glorification, a whole mind set of 'we're better

than everyone, yay, look at us'..it also suspends self analysis.

i honestly can't believe some of you are so empty headed you believe

things that do not exist. thats fucking something. since when did

politicians become bearers of truth and your best interest?

umm, pistol? people protest the bush admin becuz it is waging a false

war. what nation is currently dropping bombs on people? what nation

is in its second war in 2 years? what nation somehow comes to the conclusion

that dropping bombs will make your country and the world safe? what nation has strategic plans to bomb

numerous other countries? what nation pulled out of the abm treaty?

what nation just pissed all over the world and its best friends in favour

of provided concrete evidence? what nation has been jamming up your

ass daily non facts as a case to drop bombs on people? are you fucking

retarded?

see bug that's that point.

most of those protestors aren't really saying "Don't attack Iraq!" for the sake of not attacking Iraq. They're doing it for other reasons such as what I mentioned in my last post.

If thats the case why are they coming up with shit like Bush is doing it for oil or to avenge his father. I mean personally I think good is gonna come out of this for the Iraqi people. The only people not liking it is the people that hold rank in Saddam's crew. I mean right now do you think the Iraqi public could start a protest in Baghdad or Basra right now like folks in NY SF & LA are doing right now? NO. They woulda been gassed by now. Instead they're just being shot by IRAQI troops.

Originally posted by Pistol

see bug that's that point.

most of those protestors aren't really saying "Don't attack Iraq!" for the sake of not attacking Iraq. They're doing it for other reasons such as what I mentioned in my last post.

 

If thats the case why are they coming up with shit like Bush is doing it for oil or to avenge his father.

we both agree about this so i'll leave it at that

Originally posted by Pistol

I mean personally I think good is gonna come out of this for the Iraqi people.

good for the Iraqi people? like getting bombs dropped on them for the last 10 years? like US sanctions blocking basic medicine that could prevent diseases that we in the US take for granted, so iraqi people have been suffering for no reason other than the US being assholes?

Originally posted by Pistol

The only people not liking it is the people that hold rank in Saddam's crew. I mean right now do you think the Iraqi public could start a protest in Baghdad or Basra right now like folks in NY SF & LA are doing right now? NO. They woulda been gassed by now. Instead they're just being shot by IRAQI troops.

so why do you have problems with americans protesting?

even then, there will not be democracy set up in iraq if saddam was forced out. if you think so, you've been seriously delusioned by our media

ummm, maybe you should pay a little closer attention.

iraqi citizens do not trust us. they're still kind of bitter about that whole 'embargo' we placed on them, which would not allow food and medical aid and support into their country (of course all the while allowing the export -and import into america- of iraqi oil) thus killing hundreds of thousands of 'civillians'. the un has aknowledged this for years. oh, but again, who cares what the UN aknowledges.

also, theres this whole thing called pride. its pretty important to people. for some people, its the only thing they have. literally. no food. no family. no shelter. no future. nothing but pride. and we stomp all over that with our back-handed handouts and bullshit politricks.

god, i need to stop. this is making me crabby.

Originally posted by Pistol

The only people not liking it is the people that hold rank in Saddam's crew.

 

what news are you reading? the expectations of iraqi's running in the streets with joy that the american liberators have finally saved them isn't happenin' bro..yet...

 

 

I mean right now do you think the Iraqi public could start a protest in Baghdad or Basra right now like folks in NY SF & LA are doing right now? NO. They woulda been gassed by now.

 

yea, maybe, but who are you, mr. come save the day guy?

destroying the village to save it should be your new signature.

 

 

Instead they're just being shot by IRAQI troops.

well there you go, that fits your views nicely huh? if the news said it,

then it must be true. i take it you know nothing of the reality of war time coverage...

eat it up fat ass.

mr prez, i really hope you're not older than 15, because that would make explain why your head is so far up your ass.

I don't have anything against the protestors themselves. Personally they are kinda annoying with some of the stuff they are doing.

Blocking traffic by laying down in the streets. Causing police to have to deal with that. Burning people's private property etc.

The US is of course going to accidently kill innocent Iraqi's but at the same time look at all the innocent Iraqi's Saddam has butchered on purpose 20 years ago and continuing now.

Yes many Iraqi's are suspicious of the US. They were expecting us to go in along with a large portion of the world during the Gulf War. Then after we tried to get together an overthrow of Saddams "government". We backed out after it started and Saddam was able to kill his own innocent Iraqis. You also have the idea of outsiders coming into your country which is always scary. It doesen't help when you have Al Jazeera broadcasting Saddam's propaganda all over the Middle East as this regions main "news station". But after all is said and done I think the Iraqi people will be better off. And by the numbers casualties of Iraqi's in this war will be far lower than a few months of Saddam's army/secret police, etc.

Here's an interesting piece by a reporter and former "human shield"

The original article can be found here.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...23%2Fdo2305.xml

I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam

By Daniel Pepper

(Filed: 23/03/2003)

I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.

So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.

The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.

We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.

I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.

It scared the hell out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."

Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.

I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.

"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."

We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.

The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.

Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"

It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.

Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.

Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.

no fuckwit, its taking the time to think critically about the information

that is jammed down our throats. ALL OF IT IS SUBJECT TO CRITICAL ANALYSIS. you'd be skeptical of iraqi news, so

why would you just bend over and take american news up your skinny

white ass? again, do you have any fucking

clue about the history of war time news coverage that comes from

the perpertrating state? NO. you guys have the fucking weakest arguments

that are based on fucking SQUAT.

stop fucking assuming people that are 'anti-war' have no ability

to see the facts about saddam hussein.