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SO I have been reading about how fucked up this man is for years now. Recently it seems the mass media is catching wind...this article was a real winner and touched on an issue I had not heard of...

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/09/real.delay/index.html

 

 

The real scandal of Tom DeLay

 

 

WASHINGTON, D.C. (Creators Syndicate) -- Forget the freebie trips across the Atlantic and the Pacific. Forget the casinos and the allegedly illicit contributions -- they represent only degrees of avarice.

 

To grasp the moral bankruptcy of the public Tom DeLay, the House majority leader, you only have to know about Frank Murkowski and Saipan.

 

Today, Frank Murkowki is the governor of Alaska, but from 1980 to 2002, he was a conservative Republican senator from Alaska.

 

How conservative? His voting record earned him zero ratings from organized labor's AFL-CIO and the liberal Americans for Democratic Action, and perfect 100s from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the American Conservative Union.

 

But as chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, Frank Murkowski became furious at the abusive sweatshop conditions endured by workers, overwhelmingly immigrants, in the U.S. territory of the Northern Mariana Islands, of which Saipan is the capital.

 

Because they were produced in a territory of the United States, garments traveled tariff-free and quota-free to the profitable U.S. market and were entitled to display the coveted "Made in the USA" label.

 

Among the manufacturers that had profited from the un-free labor market on the island were Tommy Hilfiger USA, Gap, Calvin Klein and Liz Claiborne.

 

Moved by the sworn testimony of U.S. officials and human-rights advocates that the 91 percent of the workforce who were immigrants -- from China, the Philippines, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh -- were being paid barely half the U.S. minimum hourly wage and were forced to live behind barbed wire in squalid shacks minus plumbing, work 12 hours a day, often seven days a week, without any of the legal protections U.S. workers are guaranteed, Murkowski wrote a bill to extend the protection of U.S. labor and minimum-wage laws to the workers in the U.S. territory of the Northern Marianas.

 

So compelling was the case for change the Alaska Republican marshaled that in early 2000, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed the Murkowski worker reform bill.

 

But one man primarily stopped the U.S. House from even considering that worker-reform bill: then-House Republican Whip Tom DeLay.

 

According to law firm records recently made public, lobbyist Jack Abramoff, paid millions to stop reform and keep the status quo, met personally at least two dozen times with DeLay on the subject in one two-year period. The DeLay staff was often in daily contact with Abramoff.

 

DeLay traveled with his family and staff over New Year's of 1997 on an Abramoff scholarship endowed by his client, the government of the territory, to the Marianas, where golf and snorkeling were enjoyed.

 

DeLay fully approved of the working and living conditions. The Texan's salute to the owners and Abramoff's government clients was recorded by ABC-TV News: "You are a shining light for what is happening to the Republican Party, and you represent everything that is good about what we are trying to do in America and leading the world in the free-market system"

 

Later, DeLay would tell The Washington Post's Juliet Eilperin that the low-wage, anti-union conditions of the Marianas constituted "a perfect petri dish of capitalism. It's like my Galapagos Island."

 

Contrast that with what then-Sen. Murkowski told me in a 1998 interview: "The last time we heard a justification that economic advances would be jeopardized if workers were treated properly was shortly before Appomattox."

 

The "Made in the USA" label means standards of quality and standards of conduct.

 

But more important than how a product is made is how the people who make that product are treated -- as human beings with innate dignity -- who are free to organize and entitled to a living wage.

 

Did somebody say something about moral values?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Liberal Media Unsheathes Long Knives To Attack Tom DeLay

 

Gun Owners of America

8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102

Springfield, VA 22151

(703)321-8585

 

 

 

 

Tuesday, May 3, 2005

 

If there's one thing the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the network news hate more than conservatives, it's an effective conservative.

 

So it is hardly surprising that they've launched a personal attack on Tom DeLay which is virtually unprecedented in recent history.

 

You may remember that, after the Columbine tragedy, DeLay worked with Gun Owners of America to set up a procedure which killed all anti-gun legislation -- even anti-gun measures which had overwhelming support. DeLay also worked with us to sidetrack, for many years, the anti-gun Incumbent Protection Act.

 

At a time when even the Bush administration endorsed the reauthorization of the semi-automatic gun ban, DeLay was the one major voice in Washington who stood firm against maintaining the odious ban.

 

The current attacks on DeLay's ethics involve complex factual issues which are sometimes difficult to understand. The liberals are counting on this.

 

Part of the problem is a partisan Democratic prosecutor in Austin who is out to make a name for himself.

 

But more so, the problem involves complex, unconstitutional incumbent-protection statutes which seek to silence pro-gun voices -- and accusations that DeLay's strict compliance with the technicalities of those laws fails to comport with the "spirit" of the liberal anti-gun legislation.

 

Then, there are activities the liberal media concede are legal and legitimate -- but seek to demonize nevertheless.

 

For instance, a legal DeLay trip financed by a conservative non-profit organization was challenged because the non-profit, in turn, received contributions from groups which could not fund the trip directly. Even the Washington Post concedes that DeLay had no knowledge of the group's funding, had no obligation to find out, and therefore acted legally.

 

Funny. Bill Clinton committed perjury -- and the liberal media rallied behind them. So the members of the Washington press corps are obviously no sticklers for ethics.

 

The bottom line? This fight is about an effective, pro-gun congressman who is being persecuted because of his beliefs.

 

ACTION: Write your congressman. If he is a Republican, urge him to stand behind Tom DeLay. If your representative is a Democrat, ask him to stop the partisan attacks on this great pro-gun leader.

 

You can use the Gun Owners Legislative Action Center at http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm where one of the two pre-written messages below will automatically load depending on who your Representative is.

 

-- Sample Republican Communication --

 

Dear Representative

 

You and I both know that the media's frenzied attacks on Tom DeLay are not as a result of anything he has done –- but rather because he is a principled pro-gun advocate.

 

The last thing we need is an ethics lecture from pundits who, a few years back, were apologists for Bill Clinton's perjury.

 

Please stand behind Tom DeLay and support him in his battles against the liberal media.

 

Sincerely,

 

-- Sample Democratic Communication --

 

Dear Representative

 

You and I both know that the media's frenzied attacks on Tom DeLay are not as a result of anything he had done -- but rather because he is a principled pro-gun advocate.

 

The last thing we need is an ethics lecture from pundits who, a few years back, were apologists for Bill Clinton's perjury.

 

Please ask Nancy Pelosi to stop the partisan attacks against DeLay.

 

Sincerely,

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Guest KING BLING
Originally posted by angelofdeath@May 26 2005, 12:53 PM

 

The current attacks on DeLay's ethics involve complex factual issues which are sometimes difficult to understand. The liberals are counting on this.

 

 

 

I can't tell if that thing is a joke but the above is my favorite. They are like 'it's too complicated to explain what really happened...so we won't either, but beleive us, we know what's really going on...'

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Guest KING BLING

New ethics cloud over leading Republican DeLay

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050526/...S-DELAY-DC.html

 

By Mark Babineck / Reuters

 

HOUSTON - Ethics questions swirling around U.S. House of Representatives Majority Leader Tom DeLay mounted on Thursday when a Texas judge ruled that a committee formed by the powerful Republican had violated state law by failing to disclose $600,000 in mostly corporate donations.

 

State District Judge Joe Hart in Austin made the ruling in a lawsuit filed by five Democratic candidates defeated in 2002 by Republicans who received money from Texans for a Republican Majority, a political action committee founded by DeLay to help Republicans capture the Texas Legislature.

 

Hart awarded the Democrats a total of $196,660 in damages.

 

DeLay, the second-ranking Republican in the House, was not a defendant in the suit, which was filed against committee treasurer Bill Ceverha. But the ruling was the latest setback for DeLay, who has been under fire in recent months for ethics problems involving fund-raising, foreign travel and his relationships with lobbyists.

 

The Democrats charged that the political committee did not report the corporate money and that it was used illegally, because Texas law forbids the use of corporate donations in political campaigns.

 

Ceverha argued that the money went toward administrative costs, not campaigns.

 

The committee's efforts helped Republicans take control of Texas Legislature for the first time since the Reconstruction era after the U.S. Civil War, and led to a controversial remapping of the state's congressional districts which ultimately increased the party's majority in the U.S. House.

 

Hart, who heard testimony in the lawsuit in March but did not rule until now, said in his written decision the contributions should have been reported to the Texas Ethics Commission because "they were used in connection with a campaign for elective office."

 

He did not rule specifically on whether the money was raised and spent illegally, saying that was "for another trial."

 

The decision was a victory for clean politics, said Joe Crews, attorney for the Democrats.

 

"We're very happy and believe this is the first step in upholding the integrity of the Texas electoral process," he said.

 

"It sends a very clear message to corporations and lobbyists and other folks that this sort of secretive, underhanded activity is against the law and not allowed in Texas."

 

Ceverha attorney Terry Scarborough said in a statement that Hart's decision was wrong and would be appealed.

 

"Our client was exercising his constitutional rights of freedom of speech and freedom of association," he said.

 

DeLay did not have an immediate response, but the National Democratic Committee in Washington, which has made him a top target in the 2006 election, did.

 

"The long arm of the law finally caught up to the rule-breaking, power-abusing Tom DeLay," said DNC spokesman Josh Earnest. "Fortunately for the American people, Tom DeLay can no longer assert that the rules of law and justice don't apply to him.

 

DeLay, who represents a Houston-area district, has argued in the past that Democrats were using unfounded partisan attacks to try to weaken him politically.

 

DeLay has been under investigation by Travis County District Attorney Ronnie Earle in Austin for his part in the committee's activities.

 

DeLay has not been charged, but three men with close ties to DeLay have been indicted for illegal fund-raising activities by the committee.

 

Eight corporations also were indicted for making illegal contributions to the committee.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest KING BLING

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/08/del...t.ap/index.html

 

Lawmaker heading DeLay inquiry has ties to lobbyist

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 Posted: 4:07 PM EDT (2007 GMT)

 

 

 

Doc Hastings, R-Washington

 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The lawmaker who will head a House inquiry into trips that lobbyist Jack Abramoff arranged for Tom DeLay has his own links to the lobbyist.

 

At one point, Abramoff touted Rep. Doc Hastings' relationship with his firm in a pitch to a prospective client.

 

As chairman of the House ethics committee, Hastings, R-Washington, could play a big role in determining DeLay's future. DeLay, the House majority leader, has asked the panel to review his travels, which include trips arranged by Abramoff while the lobbyist worked for the Seattle, Washington-based Preston Gates firm.

 

Abramoff cited close connections to Hastings in a 1995 letter to the Northern Mariana Islands government in which he urged the government to hire his firm. At the time, Hastings served on a House subcommittee that oversaw the Marianas and was considering Democratic proposals to impose minimum wage, immigration and other U.S. laws on the Pacific commonwealth, which opposed them.

 

In Abramoff's sales pitch, he wrote that lobbying colleague and former Rep. Lloyd Meeds "has an excellent relationship" with Hastings and several other members of the House Subcommittee on Native American and Insular Affairs.

 

The Marianas hired Abramoff's firm and paid it millions in the 1990s for lobbying efforts run by Abramoff, including work to counter allegations that Marianas clothing factory workers faced "sweatshop" conditions. At Abramoff's urging, the island government played host to many congressional aides and lawmakers, including DeLay, who visited during December 1997.

 

Hastings' office and the Marianas team Abramoff headed had at least three-dozen contacts in 1996 and 1997, a crucial time for Abramoff as he tried to show his new client that Preston Gates' six-figure monthly billings were worth the money, according to firm invoices and correspondence provided by the island government to The Associated Press under an open records request.

 

Hastings' chief of staff Ed Cassidy said the lawmaker's staff talked often with Preston Gates lobbyists because they came from a home-state firm and often represented clients from Hastings' district.

 

"Neither Chairman Hastings, nor I, or any member of our staff, has ever met, spoken to or traveled with Abramoff, or taken any action at his request," Cassidy said.

 

In a June 1996 report to the islands' government, Abramoff's lobbying team claimed a successful push to get Hastings to attend a hearing on oversight of the Marianas as one of its achievements for the month.

 

The day before the hearing, a member of Abramoff's Marianas lobbying team talked to Hastings about his participation at the hearing, including possible questions, and suggested opening remarks for the lawmaker to make, the billing documents indicate.

 

At the June 26, 1996, hearing, Hastings submitted a statement calling the Marianas an "economic success story." He urged Congress to continue a hands-off approach, in part by rejecting a minimum wage.

 

"Those workers' jobs and livelihoods were being threatened by the Clinton administration and Representative Hastings served on the subcommittee that could help them, so of course he was willing to hear their side of the story and help publicize their plight," Cassidy said.

 

The day after the hearing, Hastings received $500 from the Preston Gates political action committee. The money was given as part of a campaign fundraiser that Hastings had by coincidence held the evening of the hearing day, Cassidy said.

 

The donation was included in at least $8,300 given to Hastings' campaign by employees of Abramoff's lobbying firms -- first Preston Gates and then Greenberg Traurig. Abramoff gave Hastings' campaign $1,000 between September 1996 and November 1997, donations Cassidy called "inconsequential."

 

Hastings' appointment to head the House ethics committee came after the previous chairman took issue with some of DeLay's activities and GOP House leaders removed him from the panel. Last month, two Republican committee members who gave to DeLay's legal defense stepped aside from the DeLay investigation, acknowledging their donations could lead people to question their objectivity.

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  • 9 months later...

As I'm sure you've all heard...

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12141276/

 

DeLay won’t seek re-election

 

Ex-House majority leader has ‘no fear’ about probe into his activities

 

WASHINGTON - Succumbing to scandal, former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said Tuesday he will resign from Congress in the face of a tough re-election race, closing out a career that blended unflinching conservatism with a bare-knuckled political style

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All politicians are shady to one degree or another. The Democrats have done PLENTY of illegal shit in the past, in Texas and everywhere else. They think gerrymandering Congressional Districts is just peachy when it benefits them, but some how or another when the Republicans do THE EXACT SAME THING it's some major moral issue. They rammed the Democratic agenda down America's throat for FORTY YEARS, and when the Republicans finally got the upper hand, all we hear is the Democrat Party crying like a bunch of little babies about how unfair it all is. I didn't notice them worrying about "fairness" when they were freezing the conservatives' bills out. I didn't notice any crying about ethics when it was Democrats raking it in from special interests and lobbyists. They remind me of your little brother who shoplifts some candy and then points his finger at you when he gets caught.

 

Tom DeLay plays hardball politics. So do the Democrats, when they are in power. George Bush is a fucking puppet, just like all political figures, just as Bill Clinton was, and just as Hillary Clinton is. They will lie, cheat, steal, kill, what-the-fuck-ever as long as they can stay in office. (Notice I did not say "in POWER." They are not in power. They are ALL marionettes dancing on the strings of Big Money.)

 

It is silly to treat Tom DeLay as though he is the Devil Incarnate. If he gets forced out, some other politician will take his place, and the System goes on forever. Same shit, different day. If the Republicrats get forced from office, their places will be taken by Demopublicans. The one thing we will never see is an independent Third Party that is not controlled by the up-Eastern liberal establishment come to power.

Where did Bush go to school? Yale. What was his fraternity? Skull and Bones.

Where did Gore go to school? Yale. What was his fraternity? Skull and Bones.

 

Wake UP. You need to start looking behind the facade. Rockefeller family. Morgan. Kuhn. Loeb. More to come.

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Here's the list I wanted to add to my last post. It annoys me that I cannot edit posts. I often find small errors or want to expand on an idea I have posted, and it breaks my sense of continuity that 12 oz. does not permit editing past a certain time limit. But I suppose that is a subject for a wholly different thread.

 

Wake UP. You need to start looking behind the facade. Rockefeller family. Kuhn. Loeb. Otto Kahn. Jacob Schiff. Felix Warburg. Bernard Baruch. Col. Edward Mandell House. Robert S. Lovett. J.P. Morgan. Vanderbilt family. Whitney. Percy A. Rockefeller. William A. Harriman and his brother, Bunny Harriman. Ray Kravis. Henry Mallon. Prescott Bush. Knight Wooley. George Herbert Walker, Jr. The Brown Brothers. Robert Mosbacher.

 

And in a much larger historical sense, the Rothschild family in particular and the goldsmith banks in general. Their development of paper currency, of artificially inflating world currency economies, of developing fiat money, the development of the Rothschild empire, and the dispatching of Rothschild sons to every major European capital to open branches of the Rothschild Bank. The intermarrying of wealthy, influential families, the three attempts by the London investment banking powers to form a CENTRAL BANK in the United States as a tool of subverting American economic independence, and Andrew Jackson's heroic attempt to stop them. The railroading of the income tax into U.S. law, the repeated attempts to crash the U.S. economy and the world economy through repeated "booms", "busts" and Panics, the formation of the Federal Reserve System, the unparalleled perfidy that led to the Great War (WW I), the crushing reparations forced on Germany afterwards, the contrived Great Depression, the rise of Nazi Germany and World War II, and the consolidation of capital and world banking power into their hands after WWII and during the Cold War.

 

If you study nothing else at all, at LEAST read about Col. Edward Mandell House, the ex-Confederate Democratic Party connection to Cecil Rhodes, the End of Reconstruction and the manipulation of the Election of 1876, the formation of South Africa and Rhodesia, the rise of the Princeton cartel and the Yalies and the Election of Woodrow Wilson. The period of time between 1900 and today can be summed up in the life and personal papers of a handful of men--Felix Warburg, Kuhn, Loeb, Otto Kahn, Bernard Baruch and Col. Edward Mandell House, J.P. Morgan and his minons, Vanderbilt, and Rockefeller. Once you understand this period of history, you will realize that democracy is a sham and has never really existed since the creation of the United States Bank. If you do not choose to study these men, and refuse to understand what they did to us, you will never understand how things came to be as they are. Republican, Democrat, it makes no difference. BOTH SIDES are controlled by the same group of people, and have been for more than one hundred years.

 

Did you EVER hear the name "Col. Edward Mandell House" before? Perhaps you should ask yourself "why not?", because he was intimately involved in the subversion of American democracy, the election of five Texas governors and two U.S. Presidents. He virtually controlled Woodrow Wilson like a puppet (Wilson once told the press that "Col. House and I are of the same mind, like the same person.") and is personally responsible for the development of the Welfare State as it exists today, and the fact hat the United States is trillions of dollars in debt. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS PERIOD OF HISTORY.

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beleive me kabar, i am trying... but its funny talking about delay and shit...how its all about partisan liberals and shit...

 

I consider myself an ultra conservative in more the liberatarian sense, so I'm kinda a liberal too because i support all freedom shit such as speech, guns, gay mariage, seperation of church and state, anti-military, anti-tax, anti-goverenment, pro-environment etc etc etc...

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Kabar, this is the year of FUCK TEXAS, or at least those who came to power via our Texas leadership. Lets review the past few years:

 

The New England, I mean Texan, President wins election via fraud

9/11

Iraq - pre-planned <the Downing Street Memo exists> with the victims of 9/11 used to justify it

The Vice Presidents chief of staff is indicted and resigns

The Vice Presidents chief of staff admits the president knew about a traitorous act

the Speaker Of The House is investigated for illegal fund raising activities

The Speaker Of The House is revealed to offer bribes for votes

The Speaker Of the House is indicted

The Speaker Of The House resigns in shame

Katrina - the designated leader having only managed horses prefers to shop

A top aid to the president is caught shop lifting at Target

A top speaker for the DHS tried to have sex with a 14 year old

President has lowest poles since Nixon

President fails on all public policy initiatives

President creates highest national debt EVER, selling our debt to questionable Middle East countries and China

Dollar becomes less valuable than the Euro

Anti-UN figure placed as Ambassador to UN amidst already failed international reputation

President states specifically he respects constitutional warrants, than when it is revealed investigations have taken place without them, he makes up constitutional law

 

 

...I don't know, Republicans got there way and I don't think anyone feels stronger or even more moral than we did 6 years ago. Forget what was, can you honestly say we are better off? I just pulled that list ouf of my ass, drunk as I am...I could do much worse because there is so much to work with.

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And I wanted to edit my statement to retract my last question because it doesn't address directly what you said. BUT, I agree, we need a Parliament style government to allow the logic of both sides to have a voice amongst the current power from birth elite. BUT, it's really gotten bad, I mean, it's out of control, and though I know you are not a republican per se, you definately stand up for them...

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I lived in Tom Delay's district for quite a while. It is amazing to finally see him get screwed.

 

I'll even admit, Kabar, that people like Delay are merely playing politics, but it doesn't change the moral impetus of the situation. I'm not saying that both sides don't play illegally, but it is still wrong. People act like Delay is the devil incarnate because, of recent history, he has continually fucked over our political system and his voting constiuents for his and others personal gain. I am just glad to see that he is finally being seen and shown as the douchebag he is.

 

Also, in regards to the gerrymandering issue. It was not just that he was gerrymandering the lines for another repub congressional seat, but the way he did it. He tried to have most of the democratic representitives within the state arrested. He also did it by subverting funds and security resources from the Department of Homeland Security. What the fuck does the DOH have to do with redrawing disctrict lines?

 

It is the level and amount of illegal activity that he conducted in front of the public eye that is so reprehensible. You talk about people bitching and moaning when conservatives do this or that, but that is whats needed to give us even some semblance of political efficacy within our society.

 

I usually don't have a problem with people playing the game, but I hate that motherfucker.

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That's interesting Kabar. It sounds like a book I read called " The planned distruction of U.S.A.", which was good until it got all christian. Anyway, it seams to me that a certain group of people is trying to

create a new theocracy. Who was it that said " the wealthy are blessed by god". Currently it looks like a warped version of Fascism ( the original version/ not Hitlers version).

 

*** also look into the Federal Reserve act

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the progressive era was one of the major steps that began the gutting of america.

 

I'm sorry but your wrong about this. This country was founded on the idea that the people could

govern themselves without the interferance of a king or corporation. In the late 1700's I don't think there was a more " progressive" concept.

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the classical liberals who founded this country WERE NOT the same and CANNOT be equated to the STATIST LIBERALS who were active in the progressive era. how anyone can put thomas jefferson in the same category as the progressives, is seriously lacking in any sort of knowledge on the subject. the first fundamental fight between the statists (federalists) and the anti statists (republicans, small r) was that of a national bank. the hamiltonians argued the constitution allowed for a national bank. the jeffersonians said it didnt. soon hamilton won. a bank was created. then along came andy jackson. he SHUT THAT FUCKER DOWN. now in 1913 we have another national bank. add to that, INCOME TAX and DIRECT ELECTION of senators. add to this, prohibition, america's first

imperialist wars, among other things. more power into the central government. more control over the states and the people. its funny because this country was founded out of a tax revolt. another one happened in 1913. this time, it was the in support of the same principles that we SECEDED from in 1776.

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The tax revolt you are talking about, was actually people revolting about unfair tax CUTS that the

west India Co was getting, and how the small merchants were getting screwed ( similar to the Walmart/ Exxon situation of today) . I agree with the fact that the Federal Reserve is extremely flaud, and it's seems to be criminal that it's allowed to operate without audit. But you can't just say that the Liberals invented income tax to destroy America. How do you think the roads were built, bridges, tunnels....etc. Jefferson ( slavery issue aside) is the basis for many of the current progressive points of view. Shit! even Washington has been quoted as wishing for an ever growing liberal America.( to para phrase)

 

Be careful not to blame all the problems in this country on a few wealthy men. The conspiracy theory is an easy way out. It affords us the excuse not do anything. In this country a small group of people with a focused agenda can get an awful lot accomplished. The current Fundamentalist/ Neo-Cons are testament to that.

 

** I would love to have more info on the Fed. Esspecially how it was restructured after the Repubs dropped the gold standard. If anyone has a couple of links, that would be appreciated.

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"The tax revolt you are talking about, was actually people revolting about unfair tax CUTS that the

west India Co was getting, and how the small merchants were getting screwed ( similar to the Walmart/ Exxon situation of today) . I agree with the fact that the Federal Reserve is extremely flaud, and it's seems to be criminal that it's allowed to operate without audit. But you can't just say that the Liberals invented income tax to destroy America. How do you think the roads were built, bridges, tunnels....etc. Jefferson ( slavery issue aside) is the basis for many of the current progressive points of view. Shit! even Washington has been quoted as wishing for an ever growing liberal America.( to para phrase) "

 

again your picking and choosing. the revolution was a tax revolt. it was almost started years earlier over a tax on stamps. have you ever read the declaration of independence? the british were totally mercantilist in nature. then you have jefferson with a hard on for adam smith.

income taxes were specifially forbidden in the constitution. income taxes today currently make up 1/3 of federal revenue. if income taxes were dropped today, we would still have a budget of around 1.8 trillion dollars. this is around the 2000 spending budget. the income tax is tyrannical. thomas jefferson would not support income tax.

 

you do understand that thomas jefferson is not the same as a modern liberal right? you understand that classical liberalism is not contemporary liberalism right? classical liberal is what true conservatism or libertarianism is today. jefferson was an enemy of the state. modern liberals love the state and want more of it. jefferson believed in states rights. he believed in nullification and he believed in secession. he believed in strict construction of the federal constitution. he believed in freedom and liberty. he believed in religious freedom, and oddly enough pushed for laws in virginia like the death penalty for polygamy.

so yeah.

i cannot see at all where thomas jefferson, a southern agrarian states rights advocate and a believer in decentralized government, is the basis of the leftist agenda today. the progressive era was the second step in the death of the republic. lincoln was the first.

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Jefferson was also all about limited Presidential power... until he became president ( luisiana purchase). As far as big government.... can you think of a period in history were the government was bigger than it is today. I'm not exactly a gung ho liberal, I don't believe in big government, but I do think that the economy would be better and the country would be safer if we stopped giving so much Corporate Wealfare, and started focusing on small buisness and the working class. Think about this for a minute George Bush gave a tax cut of 5 BILLION dollars to create 1 MILLION jobs. That's 500,000 K per job. What kind of insanity is that?

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