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Discussion in 'News' started by imported_grim540, Sep 19, 2005.

  1. imported_grim540

    imported_grim540 Member

    Joined: Jul 16, 2001 Messages: 465 Likes Received: 0
    Anyone who pays taxes (which would be everyone)should read this. If you have any questions feel free to post them. I am curious to see what the 12oz community thinks of this. There is a great book out on the fair tax bill(HR 25) right now called "The FairTax Book" at 182 pages it is a quick read.

    I lifted this off of FAIRTAX.ORG

    Thumbnail sketch of the FairTax
    a comprehensive plan to replace income and payroll taxes

    The FairTax proposal is a comprehensive plan to replace federal income and payroll taxes, including personal, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security/Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes. The FairTax proposal integrates such features as a progressive national retail sales tax, dollar-for-dollar revenue replacement, and a rebate to ensure that no American pays such federal taxes up to the poverty level. Included in the FairTax plan is the repeal of the 16th Amendment to the Constitution. The FairTax allows Americans to keep 100 percent of their paychecks (minus any state income taxes), ends corporate taxes and compliance costs hidden in the retail cost of goods and services, and fully funds the federal government while fulfilling the promise of Social Security and Medicare.

    Americans take home their whole paychecks.
    Not only do more Americans have jobs, but they also take home 100 percent of their paychecks (except where state income taxes apply). No federal income taxes or payroll taxes are withheld from paychecks, pensions, or Social Security checks.

    No federal sales tax up to the poverty level means progressivity like today's tax system.
    To ensure no American pays tax on necessities, the FairTax plan provides a prepaid, monthly rebate (prebate) for every registered household to cover the consumption tax spent on necessities up to the federal poverty level. This, along with several other features, is how the FairTax completely untaxes the poor, lowers the tax burden on most, while making the overall rate progressive. However, the FairTax is progressive based on lifestyle/spending choices, rather than simply punishing those taxpayers who are successful. Do you see how much freer life is with the FairTax instead of the income tax?

    No tax on used goods. The amount you pay to fund the government is totally visible.
    With the FairTax you are only taxed once on any good or service, the sales tax is charged just as state sales taxes are today. If you choose to buy used goods - used car, used home, used appliances - you do not pay the FairTax. If, as a business owner or farmer, you buy something for strictly business purposes (not for personal consumption), you pay no consumption tax. When you decide what to buy and how much to spend, you see exactly how much you are contributing to the government with each purchase.

    Retail prices no longer hide corporate taxes or their compliance costs, which drive up costs for those who can least, afford to pay.
    Did you know that hidden income taxes and the cost of complying with them currently make up 20 percent or more percent of all retail prices? It's true. According to Dr. Dale Jorgenson of Harvard University, hidden income taxes are passed on to the consumer in the form of higher prices - from an average 22 percent on goods to an average 25 percent on services - for everything you buy. If competition does not allow prices to rise, corporations lower labor costs, again hurting those who can least afford to lose their jobs. Finally, if prices are as high as competition allows and labor costs are as low as practical, profits/dividends to shareholders are driven down, thereby hurting retirement savings for moms-and-pops and pension funds invested in Corporate America. With the FairTax, the sham of corporate taxation ends, competition drives prices down, more people in America have jobs, and retirement/pension funds see improved performance.

    The income tax exports our jobs, rather than our products. The FairTax brings jobs home.
    Most importantly, the FairTax does not burden U.S. exports as they are with the current income tax. So the FairTax allows U.S. exports to sell overseas for prices 22 percent lower, on average, than they do now, with similar profit margins. Lower prices sharply increase demand for U.S. exports, thereby increasing job creation in U.S.manufacturing sectors. At home, imports are subject to the same FairTax rate as domestically produced goods. Not only does the FairTax put U.S. products sold here on the same tax footing as foreign imports, but the dramatic lowering of compliance costs in comparison to other countries' value-added taxes also gives U.S. products a definitive pricing advantage which foreign tax systems cannot match.

    The FairTax strategy is revenue neutrality:
    Neither raise nor lower taxes so consumer costs remain stable.
    The FairTax pays for all current government operations, including Social Security and Medicare. Government revenues are more stable and predictable than with the federal income tax because consumption is a more constant revenue base than is income.

    If you were in a 23-percent income tax bracket, the federal government would take $23 out of your paycheck for every $100 you made. With the FairTax, if the federal government gets $23 out of every $100 spent in America, the same total revenue is delivered to the federal government. This is revenue neutrality. So, instead of paycheck-earning Americans paying 7.65 percent of their paychecks in Social Security/Medicare payroll taxes, plus an average of 18 percent of their paychecks in federal income tax, for a total of about 25.65 percent, consumers in America pay only $23 out of every $100. Or about 30 percent at the cash register when they elect to spend on new goods or services for their own personal consumption. And this tax is collected only on spending above the federal poverty level, providing important progressivity.

    Tax criminals - don't make criminals out of honest taxpayers.
    Today, the IRS will admit to 25 percent non-compliance with the code. FairTax.org will be generous and simply take the position that this is likely a conservative estimate of the underground economy. However, this does not take into account the criminal/drug/porn economy, which equally conservative estimates put at one trillion dollars of untaxed activity. The FairTax will tax this - criminals love to flash that cash at retail - while continuing to provide the federal penalties so effective in bringing such miscreants to justice. The substantial decrease in points of compliance - from every wage earner, investor, and retiree, down to only retailers - also allows enforcement to concentrate on following the money to criminal activity, rather than making potential criminals out of every taxpayer struggling to decipher the current code.

    What is Americans For Fair Taxation?
    Americans For Fair Taxation (FairTax.org) is a non-profit, non-partisan, grassroots organization dedicated to replacing the current tax systems. The organization has hundreds of thousands of members and volunteers nationwide. Its strategy supports sound economic research, education of citizens and community leaders, and grassroots mobilization efforts. For more information visit the web page: www.fairtax.org or call 1-800-FAIRTAX.

    I think it is a great idea and I am currently volunteering for the AFFT to help gain support for the bill I have already spoken to my local represtentatives and urge anyone else who thinks it is a good idea to do the same.

    If you have any questions or objections post away, and we will see what happens next.
  2. shai

    shai Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Jan 6, 2003 Messages: 17,602 Likes Received: 707
    Yeah, I've been reading about this plan and others like it for a long time. As I said earlier, the big hurdle to this is convincing the feds that eliminating the IRS is a good idea, since it will put a LOT of people out of work...I personally love the idea, and have written letters on its behalf...I'm waiting for the IRS to audit me any day now. :haha:
  3. angelofdeath

    angelofdeath Elite Member

    Joined: Sep 15, 2002 Messages: 4,375 Likes Received: 79
    haha, just plead "THE 16th IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!"
  4. Overtime

    Overtime Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Apr 22, 2003 Messages: 13,989 Likes Received: 313
    people are saying that their calculations are way off, wayyyyyy off, which, might be true, but people are going to be way more open to the idea of keeping all their pay, and bringing jobs to america and the economy, and only paying taxes when they want, which would be neat. I'm almost done with the book. But, like most great plans, there is a downfall, i just cant figure it out yet.

    they say there is going to be a huge blackmarket, but like said in the book, who is gonig to go to jail over 23 cents? i dont know, ill finish. Thanks
  5. Overtime

    Overtime Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Apr 22, 2003 Messages: 13,989 Likes Received: 313
    edit*double post
  6. shai

    shai Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Jan 6, 2003 Messages: 17,602 Likes Received: 707
    Did you ever wish that there was "C.O. tax status"? Say, there's a war going on that you didn't support, and you could check a box and say, "I want whatever funds that would go to 'defense' to go towards rehabilitation programs for the veterans of this misguided war", or something to that effect.
  7. imported_grim540

    imported_grim540 Member

    Joined: Jul 16, 2001 Messages: 465 Likes Received: 0

    I can relate to that, I have been listening to Boortz talk up the Fairtax on his radio show for well over a year now, and at first I was very skeptical of the idea... as any red blooded American would be of any idea pushed by todays politicians. But three years as a business major, and way too many economics courses, I realized how enormous our rate of consumption at the retail level is, the only other nation that comes close is China, and they still have to get most of their citizens out of the rice patties and into the chain stores(which is increasing steadily every year) to reach the amount of money that changes hands in America on a daily basis. I think in my somewhat educated opinion that tax revenue will actually increase for the government under the fairtax.

    I think that armed thugs roaming the street beating people to collect taxes would almost be a vast imporvement from the inefficient, unwieldy beast that the IRS has become, the worst example of a bloated government agency that is commonplace in the country today.

    I am curious though who are the people that are saying the calcuations are off, I would like to look into that.

    Also, any black markets that will arise to avoid the tax will never reach the amount that the IRS claims to be unable to collect every year, which I think is somehwere around 25% I could be wrong though, and even the money that is made in the black markets will eventually end up back in the system one way or another. It's really hard to avoid Wal-Marts and the like these days.

    It is good see that some people around here are paying attention to the issue.
  8. villain

    villain Veteran Member

    Joined: Jul 12, 2002 Messages: 5,190 Likes Received: 2
    I'm not really qualified to speak on this but it certainly raises questions for me despite how good it sounds.
    I'm not so sure I like the idea of a 23% price increase on goods. But they are saying that we are essentially being taxed that with hidden income taxes.... Why are consumers paying the hidden income taxes of corporations anyways? If only profits can be taxed then there shouldn't be any rational reason for raising the price of goods anyways.
    And wouldn't consumers be more apt to buy goods from foreign sources for the lower tax rate? Might not everyone start buying from EbayChina to avoid the higher sales taxes? Sure imported goods would be subjected to the same tax rate but if we buy our goods online and have them shipped ourselves..... (This is going to become more and more commonplace as well.)
    And aren't the lower and middle class the ones who spend the most money? The vast majority of the money in this country, which is possessed by the rich, would apparently become untaxable. And if any of it does move it's to various forms of investment and tax shelters and hidden bank accounts.
    Wouldn't this lay the entire tax burden upon the middle and lower classes?

    Sounds too good to be true to me.
  9. Shogun_Assassin

    Shogun_Assassin New Jack

    Joined: Nov 29, 2004 Messages: 71 Likes Received: 0
  10. s.urkaleeno

    s.urkaleeno Junior Member

    Joined: Mar 11, 2004 Messages: 199 Likes Received: 0
    This plan is rediculous. It is all econ think tank crap. It almost sounds like they took a page out of the book "confessions of an economic hitman". There are better ways to shift the tax burned from the working class to the investor class.

    1) close corporate tax loop holes

    2) stop allowing corporations that survive off of
    government contracts and corporate wealfare from
    incorporating off shore.

    3) Just say YES to the "Paris Hilton tax" ( the inheritance tax )

    4) make people who earn there living from dividen checks pay
    more than the 15% tax
  11. shai

    shai Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Jan 6, 2003 Messages: 17,602 Likes Received: 707
    That's the problem...since the top 15% are in charge, they are going to serve their own interests by doing top-down tax cuts.
  12. shai

    shai Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Jan 6, 2003 Messages: 17,602 Likes Received: 707
    The key term is "Fair"...the upper class has no reason to pay into services that they'll never need...if the shit hits the fan in their part of the US, they'll simply go to their house in the Hamptons and let the "little people" sort it out.

    The only purpose busting Enron and Worldcom serves is diverting attention away from federally subsidized companies like Halliburton, KBR, and the entire DOD, which is more or less private industry nowadays. And, something tells me those guys get the retarded tax breaks....
  13. villain

    villain Veteran Member

    Joined: Jul 12, 2002 Messages: 5,190 Likes Received: 2
  14. Poop Man Bob

    Poop Man Bob Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Nov 16, 2000 Messages: 10,259 Likes Received: 18
    This man has the right idea.
  15. imported_grim540

    imported_grim540 Member

    Joined: Jul 16, 2001 Messages: 465 Likes Received: 0

    1) Never going to happen under the current tax-code. That is why Washington lobbyists are so opposed to it, while the companies they are serving actually support it. Their sole purpose it to court lawmakers into slipping little amendments into existing bills that will give the paying company a little tax break. Under the Fair tax there will be no lobbyists, because there will be no 16th amendment, or income tax, personal or corporate.

    2)Under the fair tax there will be no incentive to do business offshore anymore. The US will be the most favorable place to do business because every other country will not have a tax structure that will be as competitive as the fairtax. More businesses in the states means more jobs and more money for us plebs to spend or save.

    3) JUST SAY NO TO THE DEATH TAX, the worst tax in existence, why not just go all the way and become communists

    4)Don't worry about the rich people they spend a lot more in a year than I will every make in my lifetime, and it will be taxed. I worked in Vail, Colorado for quite a few years, I've seen how these people throw money around.