tesseract.... ejumicate me: 17 november

i started reading a bunch of stuff on this before i left for vacation. at the time, you were away, then i was, but i wanted to hear your thoughts and perspective. i was gonna get at you on AIM, but im so rarely on, and i thought others might enjoy the topic. we can either warm it up here and then toss it around on aim, or if you just want to save it till then...

You're killing me dude...I doubt anyone else knows or cares about that case. Anyway, if people do know and do wanna learn i'll write some shit, if not i'd gladly fill you in through aimski. How are you bro?

I have time to make you a wedding present?

17 November ???

never heard of it.

It's not even on my calendar.

:spyface:

Originally posted by Tesseract

You're killing me dude...I doubt anyone else knows or cares about that case. Anyway, if people do know and do wanna learn i'll write some shit, if not i'd gladly fill you in through aimski. How are you bro?

 

I have time to make you a wedding present?

really, im surprised. i thought for sure there would be some knowledge and interest from peole, if if only in passing. im surprised zesto isnt familiar. anyways, im real interested. sources online are limited. i want to hear from a reliable source. you. we can save it for AIM. im sure i was gonna hit you with questions after i read whatever you would type out anyways sooo....

thanks for asking. things are good. getting back in my groove. work. play. etc. not hittin the cans like i want, but will make up for it soon. wedding preperations are in motion. going to scout a place this weekend. the mother-in-law-to-be was down for the weekend. i let them go do girlie stuff. its her day. its all up to her. maybe i will get to pick up that present in person during our honeymoon.

:)

Originally posted by --zeSto--

17 November ???

 

never heard of it.

It's not even on my calendar.

 

:spyface:

up your alley zesto. i'll add you and when the three of us are on we can talk.

Well thanks guys. But my birthday is on the 18th not 17th. But way to go for thinking and planning ahead. Cash will be fine. Thank you. You guys are the best.

Cool they like Che.

http://www.terrorismanswers.com/images/photos/nov17_pic.jpg'>

really, im surprised. i thought for sure there would be some knowledge and interest from peole, if if only in passing. im surprised zesto isnt familiar. anyways, im real interested. sources online are limited. i want to hear from a reliable source. you. we can save it for AIM. im sure i was gonna hit you with questions after i read whatever you would type out anyways sooo....

Dont get me wrong bro, if channel zero was even remotely interesting lately, i'd give it a shot...still it aint easy, its 27 years of history filled with secrets and lies. It would be hard for me to sum up and even harder to debate with all the morons in here that dont have a clue but have an opinion.

Maybe if i'm up to it later i'll try some briefing.

On a sidenote, this is place is now safer than anyother place in the world...good for honeymoons:)

Originally posted by Tesseract

really, im surprised. i thought for sure there would be some knowledge and interest from peole, if if only in passing. im surprised zesto isnt familiar. anyways, im real interested. sources online are limited. i want to hear from a reliable source. you. we can save it for AIM. im sure i was gonna hit you with questions after i read whatever you would type out anyways sooo....

 

Dont get me wrong bro, if channel zero was even remotely interesting lately, i'd give it a shot...still it aint easy, its 27 years of history filled with secrets and lies. It would be hard for me to sum up and even harder to debate with all the morons in here that dont have a clue but have an opinion.

 

Maybe if i'm up to it later i'll try some briefing.

 

On a sidenote, this is place is now safer than anyother place in the world...good for honeymoons:)

understood

if you did know of any GOOD links or books on the subject... you could point me there for starters

if you dont feel its worth it to do it in here, dont. aint no thing but a tamponstring.

Novarmber 17? the terrorist group from italy(i think)? aren't they responsible for killing the FBI leader 30 yrs. ago etc.

i'm interested. fill me in

Originally posted by Dusty Lipschitz

up your alley zesto.

actually I've already discussed this with our mutual contact in greece.

hence :spyface:

things that make you go uuuuuwwwwhhhhmmmm, yeah drop the knowledge dorkus.

^^ ?? 23578??

OK Dusty, you're on. Since all related info is only available in original language i'll try to sum it up.

there was a great piece on 60 minutes about 2 months ago.

I sugest checking their archives.

um, nervermind

Did I hear wedding?! I make a great best man...and the rent is cheap...

zing!

The Revolutionary Organization 17 November, based in Greece, was one of the most active terrorist groups in Western Europe in the 1980’s. The group's name derives from the November 17, 1973 student uprising in Athens that was violently quelled by the military junta ruling Greece at the time.

17 November is a violent Marxist-Leninist organization. It's ideology is anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, and anti-United States/NATO. The group has been critical of the Greek government for not addressing issues such as the situation in Cyprus, the presence of US bases in Greece, and Greek membership in NATO and the European Community.

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History

The organizations initial attacks were selected handgun assassinations of senior US officials, including US Embassy employee Richard Welch in 1975, and US Navy Captain George Tsantes in 1983. In 1975 the group began assassinating Greek officials and public figures.

Tactically, 17 November demonstrated a limited operational capability prior to 1985. From 1975 to February 21, 1985, and the Momferatos assassination, 17 November carried out six attacks. Five of these were simple assassinations requiring minimal logistical planning. The sixth operation was an attempted assassination of a US serviceman. These attacks resulted in the death of eight people (two of whom were Americans). Seven of the victims were shot with the same .45 caliber weapon. By using the same “signature” weapon, especially in the early operational stages, 17 November ensured that no other group could take credit for it’s operations.

Beginning in the 1980s bombings became a regular weapon in the group's arsenal. Among their activities during this period were attacks against US military buses in 1987 and the assassination of US defense attache William Nordeen in 1988. Since 1990 17 November has also targeted European Community facilities and foreign firms investing in Greece, and added improvised rocket attacks to its methods.

The organization was responsible for at least five of the 15 terrorist attacks against coalition targets in Greece during the Gulf War, including the assassination of a US Army sergeant in March 1991. They also stepped up attacks against Turkish interests, including the attempted murder of a Turkish Embassy Official in July, and the assassination of a Turkish Embassy press attache in October 1991.

Its operations during 1992 were more reckless and less well planned than in the past. In July, for the first time the group killed a bystander in the course of a rocket attack in downtown Athens on the Greek Finance Minister.

In late November, authorities arrested one of Greece’s most wanted terrorists--a suspected member of the “Anti-State Struggle” organization, possibly linked to 17 November. The group continued to attack official Greek targets. These attacks included the shooting in December of a Greek parliamentarian and the bombing of tax offices.

Greece was the venue for a large number of international terrorist attacks in 1994, the most serious of which was the July 4th assassination of the acting Deputy Chief of Mission of the Turkish Embassy. The Revolutionary Organization 17 November formally claimed responsibility. A number of other attacks against Western interests in April were possibly sparked by events in the Balkans. These including an unsuccessful mortar attack against the British aircraft carrier Ark Royal in Piraeus, for which 17 November also took responsibility. Attacks were also executed against American, Dutch, French, and German commercial and diplomatic targets.

Following the November 26, 1986, car bombing of a Greek police bus, which injured 13 police officers (one fatally), 17 November moved into a new operational phase. Whereas the first phase can be referred to as one of low activity, with only a limited number of operations (six attacks from December 23, 1975, to February 21, 1985), the second and current phase is characterized by a higher level of tactical sophistication, as well as an increase in the number and lethality of attacks. From February 21, 1985 to it’s last possitively identified attack in 1990 (the rocket attack against the offices of the European Community on December 16, 1990), 17 November has carried out 40 attacks, which resulted in the deaths of five people and injured 48 others. Statistically, this five-year period had accounted for 87% of all the group’s operations since 1975.

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Structure

So far the Greek authorities have been unable to apprehend any member of the group. Consequently, little is known of the organization's membership, it’s internal dynamics, or its operational capabilities.

Organizationally, the group appears to be similar to other European Marxist-Leninist terrorist groups, such as Germany’s Red Army Faction (RAF) and France’s Direct Action; a small well-disciplined group whose hard-core members probably number no more than 20 people. Operational decisions are most likely made on a collective basis rather than by one person.

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Re: zing!

Originally posted by --zeSto--

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Structure

So far the Greek authorities have been unable to apprehend any member of the group. Consequently, little is known of the organization's membership, it’s internal dynamics, or its operational capabilities.

Organizationally, the group appears to be similar to other European Marxist-Leninist terrorist groups, such as Germany’s Red Army Faction (RAF) and France’s Direct Action; a small well-disciplined group whose hard-core members probably number no more than 20 people. Operational decisions are most likely made on a collective basis rather than by one person.

 

 

 

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First sentence, true, second sentence, not true, third sentence, true, forth sentence, pssht.

I didn't write it, I just pasted it.

so your saying that one person is sitting at the head of it all ?

i'm not saying i know anything, it's just that i read the news. um, i just read the news, and this board, oh, and some fiction, food, and science books too.

To hard to sum it up

On 21st of april 1967 democracy fell in Greece, millitary Generals, with the support and direct help from the American goverment*, took over and formed a dictatorship known as “Hounda”. During the years that followed the people that opossed to the dictators either stayed in Greece fought against and suffered or moved to Paris, studied at universities and got involved with the revolutionary ideas that where floating all over the western world in that period. I’m sure you all heard of MAY 68.

After five years of struggle, the students organised the first really big riot against the dictators, it was the 17th of November 1973, the army invaded universities with tanks and many people died. It was almost one year later that the dictatorship went down and Democracy was reinstalled, it was the 24th of July 1974.

The riot of 17th of November was marked as the day that things changed and its still celebrated as a day dedicated to the people that fought and died for Democracy. Still there was a group of people that stayed stuck on ideas and perceptions that lead them to think that the ‘revolution’ wasnt done and that the goal wasnt achieved.

Some of them formed the terrosrist group 17NOVEMBER taking their name by the historical riot that took place in 73’...it was obvious that they stated that the struggle wasnt over. Their first hit was the asassination of the CIA’s headmaster in Greece, Richard Welch in 1975...as revenge for the role that CIA played in favour of the dictators. Similar hits followed and the organisation send letters ‘manifesto’s” to newspapers after each hit, to claim responsibility and explain the political factors that lead to each hit. All leters were written by the same typewriter that had a flaw in the letter “p” and almost all victims were shot with the same 45’ as a seal of authentication.

By the early 80’s one could say that the organisation’s hits had a clear political view, By the mid80’s the group’s actions expanded to bombings and attacks with homemade bazookas after stealing a large amount of guns from the military. The hits started to be puzzling cause noone could understand how the selection of the victims had anything to do with the political ideology of the group. Several hits followed and Greek authorities with help from the CIA remained unable to have any success.

In 99’ 17N asassinated Steven Saunders, a british millitary man that had a high rank in NATO, the hit took place in the morning on a high traffic street. The organisation claimed that he was coordinating the NATO attack in Yugoslavia. By that time the greek goverment and the people were fed up with the fact that the terrorist group was still loose and the amount of shit they took for it on many levels. The greek authorities didnt have the best relations with the CIA and FBI moslty because they were trying to relate the group with members of the goverment.

After that British authorities started to become interested in the whole case which lead to a new collaboration on a new basis.

The plan was to forget about everything till then, and start the investigation from scratch, luckily the Scotland yard and the greek authorities worked good together and it was only months later that they both were confident with the way the investigations went.

The effort continued and the signs were that they were now real close. On july 2002 a bomb accidentally blew on a mans face in Athens harbor, he was still alive and taken to the hospital, the antiterrorist squad went there and found many things that prove that that man was one of 17N’s hitmans. The keys he had in posetion lead to apartments of the organisation were they stored guns and material. They already knew the people in the group but wanted to have full evidence before arrest so noone could deny it. The fingerprints and other evidence that were found were the missing link for arresting them.

A big advantage was the fact that no member of the terrorist group was able to leave the country, anywhere outside the country they would be arrested by the CIA and directly send to guantalamo. They all decided to hide in Greece, 20 people were arrested in the last two months and the whole organisation is now in prison.

On a sidenote, after 27 years of action the group had a myth build...all that myth went down when the facts showed that these people didnt fit any target group that was suspect and the fact that they were just a bunch of common criminals who commited a huge number of bank roberies for ‘self funding’

The trial will start soon, and the terrorist group now tried to claim a political voice. They’re common criminals with no ideology and they will be treated like that.

Well, thats about it, many things are left out and i just tried to give you a general view...i'm not a journalist but i tried to give the facts and the mood. Questions are welcome.

23578, if you were reading the news you wouldnt say that the following sentence is true:So far the Greek authorities have been unable to apprehend any member of the group. Consequently, little is known of the organization's membership, it’s internal dynamics, or its operational capabilities.

There are so many groups like this it makes me want to move to canada...haha yhea right what was I thinking...;) :D

Yo, my bad, I thought it was all you're contrymen that did the real intel gathering, I didn't realize it was in cooperation with the Greek authorities, sustained 10 damage points.

They’re common criminals with no ideology and they will be treated like that.

interesting!

Originally posted by --zeSto--

They’re common criminals with no ideology and they will be treated like that.

 

interesting!

care to elaborate

what are your personal opinions on it tesser? wait till im at work, i will post some links i bookmarked...

if anyone cares....my birthday is on november 17th :D :o

Originally posted by Dusty Lipschitz

 

 

care to elaborate

what are your personal opinions on it tesser? wait till im at work, i will post some links i bookmarked...

Well what i'm saying about them treated like the common criminals they are has do to with this.

I dont approve terrorism in general, however, if the signs where that they fought a political battle i would have some sort of sympathy to the political views and not the actions. I dont have much respect for the 'law' and its not a secret that the US gov helped the dictators, *Pres.Clinton apologised for that in public on his visit in athens a couple years ago. However killing the CIA headmaster doesnt change a thing, infact it makes things even worse.

So in my personal opinion i could see the reason behind the first attacks of the organisation and respect the political views behind it. The attacks to follow lacked sense in all levels, they were once more cold blooded assasinations but you couldnt even see the slightest trace of a political target in them, people were killed just because their dad was rich and corrupted or because they belonged to a certain party and they had less security, making them easy targets. The point is that killing people that have a direct involvment to things you disaprove makes you a terrorist, Killing people that had no involvement, just a name or a position makes you an assasin, a common criminal.

I understand liberation fronts in countries under dictatorship, and i realise that force is the only way to go there. I dont understand terrorism in a democratic state, who are you to kill people? To judge and execute?

17N, also killed people by mistake, a civilian was walking in the bomb scene and he just died. The drivers of some politicians also died, they robbed many banks to selfund, thing that i dont care about at all, but they also killed anyone in their way. I dont see any justice in that, and i dont see how a man like that claims to be a 'freedom fighter' in a free country.

Members of the group try to front as freedom fighters, i dont think they are. Whats important though is a Fair trial that will be held wisely cause any mistakes or abuse of power will prove 'their' point not 'ours'.

Its about time this story ends.

still not at work so i dont have those links.

i had kind of concluded what you had said on my own. that their purpose or there means to the end had gotten diluted. while they were "common criminals", it sounds like they were pretty professional and precise and, at least in the beginnging, were well planned out. then towards the end while their opertaions were still relatively clean, it became more random. at the begining it was all about the means to an end, while at the end its goal was the means, if that makes any sense.

what are most people's view of 17N over there? are people sympathetic or do they buy whatever propaganda is put in front of them?

Right on Dusty,

When i say that they are 'common criminals" i mean that their whole body of actions cant be concidered as a political fight, in the beggining it was...it might even 'worked' then, people had the belief that if someone was fucking up seriously he'd get wacked by them and although noone, hopefully, aproved assasinations the majority could see the point behind it. But for the most part their actions had a deeply mistaken character over every thing they were suposed to fight for and against. People died for no reason and thats not to be tolerated or supported.

Their operational skills where excellent, from hiding to organising and making bombs they were pro's. Note that the police even when very close, waited for them to panic and make a mistake, after 27 years it happened. Apart from their technical skills its very interesting how these people were. The scenaria about them were wild, only to see that they were your average joe, people with perfect background, perfect cover and in general people that everyone that knew them or met them would sware that they could harm an ant.

People here are against terrorism, everyone suffered from it and everyone wants the sideffects to stop. They're also happy that it was the greek authorities that with a new direction and improval managed to do the hard work and work seriously. Propaganda is not an issue, not because there is not one but moslty because this is a clear case for the most and because everyone was fed up with them. To give you a clew even the hardcore left wing people though that 17N was bad for them and didnt express their view.

zesto brings the super link

it's from an american news group... http://www.12ozprophet.com/ubb/icons/icon27.gif'>

but it has a picture http://www.12ozprophet.com/ubb/icons/icon26.gif'>