Taliban, Hamas, Castro, Chiapas...

This thread is just me asking questions to anyone who's followed the past century of guerilla warfare, or knows where I can find answers. These questions have no basis, I know next to nothing.

Can anyone draw similarities and differences between these groups? Why do americans wear Zapatista and Che shirts, but hate middle eastern guerilla movements? Besides their political stand against the west, what else are they doing? Taliban took over when the current Afgan government looked incompetent, had we backed them would the west still have been targeted? Is it in America's future to turn Abdel Aziz Rantisi into a pop figure like Che Gueverra?

I'm just throwing shit out to get a discussion going.

in my opinion, it's a religious crusade. They know that Islam is the only threat to democracy as a way of life. I have a very large govt. document that says they plan to destroy Islam in the east and to pacify it in the west. They basically want Islam to be like christianity, just a set of meaningless rituals.

Agree or disagree, that is what the American govt. themselves say.

And muslims are not going down without a fight. Muslims know that this is a war against their way of life. The american media wont come right out and say it, but that is the agenda.

I don't agree with the way the Taliban went about trying to establish themselves. It was too quick , to abrupt.

Change for the better has to be slow. If you want to establish a society on righteousness and good, then you have to use wisdom. Societies don't get corrupted overnight and you most definately can't change them overnight. People will always see you as an extremist if you try to do drastic things all at once. In my opinion that was the downfall of the taliban.

They were very abrupt and non compromising. That, coupled with the fact that they wouldn't let America lay pipe in the ground is why they got removed as soon as they had the chance to. (Osama was just the scapegoat)

That's why saudi is still running smooth. The saudis don't westernise their societies , but they use wisdom in dealing with the big bully America, so they remain. Otherwise, America would've turned their guns on them too.

Seriously, man, the world needs to figure something out, because the way it's being run now is not working.

cause they don't like coca cola.

(you forgot ho chi min as well)

Originally posted by Dawood@Feb 13 2006, 08:51 AM

They basically want Islam to be like christianity, just a set of meaningless rituals.

 

Quoted post

Dude, c'mon.

these groups are not similar at all.

The Zapatistas ( EZLN) from MExico is quiet pacific compared to the other groups. It has nothing to do with terrorism and religious extremists.They never fought (beside one rebellion in early 90s) or made any terrorist attacks. They represent ( at least thats what they say) the cultural resistance of the poor Maya indians vs the mondialisation, capitalism, Mexican power tryng to erase them etc....

So they have a pretty good image in the left wing population and that kind of groups....

Don't forget about the Iran and isreal threat thats going on in the middle east, I don't think America has any say over whats going to happen. One because the world is still recovering from the dumb war thats going on in Iraq. All of Bush's cabinet stepped down because the Iraq war was totally uncalled for.We went into preemptive war against Terrorism...and ended up with a quagmire of a war.

Terrorism can't be defined.

America has learned it lesson from 4G Warfare. Lets,Face it there is going to be a coalition against the United States and U.N....

we can thank hitler for a lot of it.

Originally posted by El Mamerro+Feb 13 2006, 08:28 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (El Mamerro - Feb 13 2006, 08:28 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Feb 13 2006, 08:51 AM

They basically want Islam to be like christianity, just a set of meaningless rituals.

 

Quoted post

Dude, c'mon.

[/b]

yeah, thats pretty much what we want

Originally posted by Soup@Feb 13 2006, 02:39 AM

Why do americans wear Zapatista and Che shirts, but hate middle eastern guerilla movements?

 

you cant make a statement like that its way too general.

and even if it wasnt i believ people who wear che and marcos shirts are just as likely to have a free palestine shirt as well.

 

 

 

Taliban took over when the current Afgan government looked incompetent,

 

had we backed them would the west still have been targeted?

we did back them for a bit,we gave them money for them to cut down on the production of opium in their country. which they did, some of the years the taliban was in power saw the lowest production of opium since the soviet afghan war in the 80's

 

but then we invaded and fumbled, and now the shit is booming again.

Quoted post

American teens wear Che shirts because:

1. They think he's sexy

2. They are idiots

Sure, there are probably some very good things about his legacy. (Don't go calling me some right wing nut!) But he was very enthusiatic about killing political oppents. He was responsible for the torture of hundreds in Cuban prison. Kinda like a Gitmo. Also, he was in favor of killing homosexuals. THere were other leaders of his time who were more deomocratic in there thinking, but alas, they didn't have that pretty face and bad ass attitute. Che was a more hard line Authoritarian type.

"hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine."

-Che

*edit, can't speeel

Originally posted by El Mamerro+Feb 13 2006, 10:28 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (El Mamerro - Feb 13 2006, 10:28 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Feb 13 2006, 08:51 AM

They basically want Islam to be like christianity, just a set of meaningless rituals.

 

Quoted post

Dude, c'mon.

[/b]

Seriously, that was unnessasary and untrue. Even if you dont agree with a religion or the people that practice it you should be respectful of it.

I know plenty of muslims who are detached from their religion to the point that they will violate their heritage unabashed. To them Islam is the just what you discribed above.

Dawood keeps commenting about how people should respect islam. Fuck you fuck islam fuck muhhamed, you can all suck my dick. Understood? You'd like the whole world to live under shria right? So you can beat your woman for going to school you dumb fuck.

If you're mad enough now you can go outside carry a picket sign, cut off somones head, blow yourself up... or hopefully get shot.

Calm down there buddy boy

Originally posted by Dawood@Feb 13 2006, 07:51 AM

They basically want Islam to be like christianity, just a set of meaningless rituals.

 

Quoted post

I'm offended! To the guilitines! Burn you at the steak!!

At the same time, if the tables were turned and Mid East countries had military bases in our country, interfeared in elections (Mossadegh), etc etc, we'd be doing basically the same thing.

Doesn't excuse it. Savagry is savagry, it's one thing to understand it, alot of you seem to excuse it.

Dawood the reason youre wrong and theocracy will never be an effective form of government is because times change society and culture changes but the only way religious codes change is by degenerating and corrupting until theyre just a tool of the ruling class to keep the masses subservient.

Originally posted by bobthemothafuckinbuilder@Feb 13 2006, 09:14 PM

Dawood keeps commenting about how people should respect islam. Fuck you fuck islam fuck muhhamed, you can all suck my dick. Understood? You'd like the whole world to live under shria right? So you can beat your woman for going to school you dumb fuck.

Quoted post

youre a funny dude Bob, you played yourself, and why would a muslim beat his wife for going to school?

edited for double post...

Originally posted by MAR+Feb 13 2006, 06:05 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MAR - Feb 13 2006, 06:05 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by El Mamerro@Feb 13 2006, 10:28 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Feb 13 2006, 08:51 AM

They basically want Islam to be like christianity, just a set of meaningless rituals.

 

Quoted post

 

 

Dude, c'mon.

Quoted post

Seriously, that was unnessasary and untrue. Even if you dont agree with a religion or the people that practice it you should be respectful of it.

I know plenty of muslims who are detached from their religion to the point that they will violate their heritage unabashed. To them Islam is the just what you discribed above.

[/b]

I am very respectful to christians, I just stated a well known fact about the present condition of christianity. In no way would I ever talk down on the teachings of christ , becuase he was one of the greatest prophets of God that ever lived. I'll be the first to say that Islam and muslims today (for the majority) are not living up to the name muslim. Youre right, many people who claim Islam don't practice it, or even pray, nothing.

I'll admit, my statement was a bit of a blanket statement. I know some christians are more faithful than others.

In reference to being meaningless set of rituals,

i was mainly talking about christianity's lack of historical authenticity in texts and the modernization of it. Basically, they have allowed pop culture to infiltrate their ranks. So many christians become muslim nowadays because the churches are like nightclubs and people just realize that what the churches are doing is not what Jesus was about.

if I offended any christians, I didn't intend to. And may Allah guide bob the builder

Originally posted by Dawood@Feb 13 2006, 10:01 PM

youre a funny dude Bob, you played yourself, and why would a muslim beat his wife for going to school?

Quoted post

Because in Islamic cultures and under Sharia, women are subservient to men. For example, you know the Taliban, the group you were just admiring except that they went about changes too fast? They recently decapitated a female teacher for teaching a class that included girls. They cut off her head in front of the class of 3rd-4th graders as well. Another interesting fact, under the Taliban your nose would be cut off for reading this on a computer right now. Seriously, if you advocate violent cultures and think America is at war with Islam, stop being an infidel and go move to Iran.

Originally posted by Flavicon@Feb 13 2006, 12:21 PM

American teens wear Che shirts because:

 

1. They think he's sexy

2. They are idiots

 

Sure, there are probably some very good things about his legacy. (Don't go calling me some right wing nut!) But he was very enthusiatic about killing political oppents. He was responsible for the torture of hundreds in Cuban prison. Kinda like a Gitmo. Also, he was in favor of killing homosexuals. THere were other leaders of his time who were more deomocratic in there thinking, but alas, they didn't have that pretty face and bad ass attitute. Che was a more hard line Authoritarian type.

 

"hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine."

 

-Che

 

*edit, can't speeel

Quoted post

Please cite a source for this supposed quotation you attribute to Che Guevara.

Hard line authoritarian?

Where are you getting your information from?

Originally posted by tsuifuku@Feb 13 2006, 11:51 PM

Please cite a source for this supposed quotation you attribute to Che Guevara.

 

Hard line authoritarian?

Where are you getting your information from?

Quoted post

"Oversaw Prisons

Guevara's first assignment was to oversee executions at an infamous prison, La Cabaña. Between 1959 and 1963, approximately 500 men were killed under his watch. Many individuals imprisoned at La Cabaña, including human rights activist Armando Valladares, allege that Guevara took a personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of political prisoners."

PBS

Can't help but laugh at the kids with the Che Guevara shirts. Viva la Genocide!!!!

Oh, and for that specific quote - Wikipedia

"For example, in his "Message to the Tricontinental" he writes of "hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine."[26]"

Originally posted by Stereotype V.001+Feb 14 2006, 02:55 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stereotype V.001 - Feb 14 2006, 02:55 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dawood@Feb 13 2006, 10:01 PM

youre a funny dude Bob, you played yourself, and why would a muslim beat his wife for going to school?

Quoted post

Because in Islamic cultures and under Sharia, women are subservient to men. For example, you know the Taliban, the group you were just admiring except that they went about changes too fast? They recently decapitated a female teacher for teaching a class that included girls. They cut off her head in front of the class of 3rd-4th graders as well. Another interesting fact, under the Taliban your nose would be cut off for reading this on a computer right now. Seriously, if you advocate violent cultures and think America is at war with Islam, stop being an infidel and go move to Iran.

[/b]

thats absolutely not true.

the shariah is comprehensive and not barbaric. It's just that people like you just listen to what the enemies of Islam say about Islam.

You don't study it for yourself. Yes , there is capitol punishment, but come on let's be for real...decapitating a teacher for teaching girls?

It's truly amazing to me that you would beleive that.

And it is even more amazing that you would think that billions of the worlds people would follow that or beleive that decapitating women for teaching girls is part of a revealed religion...wake up, you are being lied to.

oh, and look up top and show me one part of my post where I was admiring the taliban....it seems like some people hate the truth, love to spread lies and distort the truth.

I have a che t-shirt, but only because my freind went to Cuba and bought me it there...good pre-shrunk cotton...

Do we have any pro-Hamas people in the house? Every once in a blue moon i see somoene with a "Free Palestine" shirt, I gotta stop em in the street and ask what they think.

At this point i don't care if it's not your personal opinion, I'd be interested to hear what platform these parties have that's won them government offices.

Originally posted by Lonesome Cowboy Bill@Feb 14 2006, 05:44 AM

I have a che t-shirt, but only because my freind went to Cuba and bought me it there...good pre-shrunk cotton...

Quoted post

I dropped out of highschool and went when I was 17 but even then I went for university of havana merch... and the factory employees who stole cigars from work. $35 for a box of cohiba robustos. A week into my trip (January 1 '04) Bush announced that no Ameican would get another visa for education or otherwise. God if only I knew what questions to ask then...

Originally posted by Soup@Feb 13 2006, 10:39 AM

Can anyone draw similarities and differences between these groups?

Yes, these are all revolutionary movements fighting against what they view as social, economic or cultural oppression. The difference is exactly what means they use to rebel, what the view as the reason for the rebellion, and what they intend to do should they gain power.

 

Why do americans wear Zapatista and Che shirts, but hate middle eastern guerilla movements?

Che was a leader in Cuba during the communist revolution there. He supported an idea of socialism that was popular with "hippie" groups of that era and remains popular with hipster pseudo intellectuals to this day. He did not, on the other hand, support subjegation of women, restrictions on civil rights, state sponsored religion etc.

 

Besides their political stand against the west, what else are they doing?

Not sure what you mean by "else." A major current of arab nationalism is the idea that the West is encroaching culturally and politically. A lot of these countries want to prevent his Western "invasion" and to restore a Quran centered, Arab-centric political force to the region.

 

Taliban took over when the current Afgan government looked incompetent, had we backed them would the west still have been targeted?

The better question is "had the US not backed the Taliban, would they have been strong enough to mount any kind of resistance to our efforts to capture Bin Laden, etc.?" The US supported the Afghani Taliban during the cold war to take over the government to prevent the Soviet Union from creating a stronghold there. The government that was "in place" at that time was socialist. The Taliban was a rebel group that ousted the "true" government and supported a Western stronghold in the region. Unfortunately the Taliban (as with most of the terroristic regimes we supported during the cold war) turned against us at first opportunity and had the training and weaponry to make a good show of it. As for targeting the West, I don't think the Taliban was ever a credible threat or "targeted" the West more than any other arab government. I think the issue is why did the Taliban turn against us in the first place, and the superficial answer is arab natinalism. See above.

Is it in America's future to turn Abdel Aziz Rantisi into a pop figure like Che Gueverra?

No, Americans are scared of arabs in a way that they were never affraid of commies. Where the commies threatened to blow up cities and kill a lot of people, the arabs actually did something about it. Moreover as indicated above Che represented freedom from social constraints that Americans could support. The extremist Muslim groups go against a lot of ideals that young people hold dear, so they won't give him the same support. Plus he's not as good looking as Che was. [No Brokeback.]

Quoted post

Originally posted by Soup@Feb 14 2006, 05:59 AM

Do we have any pro-Hamas people in the house? Every once in a blue moon i see somoene with a "Free Palestine" shirt, I gotta stop em in the street and ask what they think.

 

At this point i don't care if it's not your personal opinion, I'd be interested to hear what platform these parties have that's won them government offices.

Quoted post

I don't know if it's so much being pro-Hamas as it is being anti-oppression. as far as the palestinian situation heres something to think about....

"Just like the Jewish state set up and funded HAMAS whose suicide bombers do an amazing and wonderful and highly successful job in allowing the Jews to justify their policies of expansion, then the Takfeerees, Jihaadees, Khaarijees (al-Qaida) who were propped up by the CIA, also do a wonderful job aiding the disbeleivers in their expansionist crusade against the muslim lands."