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SURVIVALISM

Discussion in 'News' started by villain, Jul 2, 2005.

  1. villain

    villain 12oz Veteran Member

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    SURVIVALISM

    Discussion started by villain - Jul 2, 2005

    When a New York Times Bestselling Author like Jared Diamond writes a book like Collapse about the rise and fall of advance civilizations, you tend to think there is a grave concern widespread among literate and informed americans about the sustainability of our way of life.

    I've been into survivalism and studying it for most of my adult, teenage and adolescent life. Call it a hunch, paranoia, or obsession predicated upon the fact that my very existence is somehow intertwined with an apocalyptic scenario (long story). Anyways, after reading this fromthewilderness article on Petrocollapse and a scaricity of clean water, I figured it's about time that I create a thread on survivalism, so we can pool our knowledge on the subject in order to make our regression into the 19th century less painful. Why? Because I care about you assholes.

    I've been seeing some interesting texts on Permaculture lately. Going green has always been the province of some of the further left people, but it's been gaining more and more creedence.
    There are more ambitious alternative energy projects such as the Solar Tower of Power which can churn out the same amount of power as a reactor. But that is in austrailia, and we here in the U.S. will stay fucked with these cavemen in office. Fortunately though still living in a somewhat free society we can do more now individually with solar power than before. We are not, sadly, getting integrated solar roofing materiels here in the US. I have however seen solar power systems which can take your home entirely off the grid for 10,000 dollars. If it is integrated into the home as it's built it can add nothing to the costs. It's becoming ever more affordable.
    Even so I don't feel comfortable with my own survivability as of yet. I still don't have my bunker/farm in the middle of nowhere, with the self contained energy system, with recycleable rain water etc. etc. When I have that, I will worry alot less. For now I will have to deal with getting fairly clean water from distillers like this:
    [​IMG]
    Distillation removes most impurities.
    I'm still going to stock up on guns and ammo.... but I'm going to make sure to sharpen my archery, since who knows how long those bullets will last.
    Some essential skills to have would be knowing the wildlife in your area... how to make impromtu shelters... various ways to get, and clean water... probably knowing how to tan a hide would be good too... how to make soap... I will add some more detailed tutorials and resources later because this is a massive subject.

    So until we have gigantic solar panels on the moon, or patching up our o-zone holes, this is something I think everyone should think about.
     
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  2. Mr. Chad

    Mr. Chad 12oz Member

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    Mr. Chad - Replied Jul 2, 2005

    odf
     
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  3. KaBar2

    KaBar2 12oz Senior Member

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    KaBar2 - Replied Jul 2, 2005

    FINALLY, a topic upon which Villain and I agree 100%.

    IMHO, the periodic little "panics" that occur over one thing and another help immeasureably to motivate people towards "preparedness." (On the right wing, the term "survivalism" is un-PC. It is a back-door insult, akin to insinuating that liberals are unpatriotic because they are against war, because people who use the word "survivalist" try to equate "being prepared" with "being ready to predate upon those who are unprepared." In other words, if I am prepared, I must be wrong for being ready to defend my stockpile against looters.)

    The New York Times is always on the wrong side of every issue, so I'm surprised if they are on the correct side of Preparedness. I have not read the article, but experience tells me the Times is probably looking through the wrong end of the telescope, as usual.

    The most recent scare that amounted to much was the Y2K thing. I still have (perfectly good) stockpiles of food, ammunition, medical supplies and so on marked "1998." My wife and I began preparing our family and encouraging our friends to prepare for Y2K several years before December 31, 1999. I first heard about Y2K in 1982, when computer programmer friends of mine were discussing it at a cocktail party in San Francisco. They stated flat out that there was going to be a collapse of at least part of the computer infrastructure because of the two-digit annual date limitations of the programs that had been written in the early 1960's. Computer scientists then had NO IDEA that these programs would still be running FORTY YEARS LATER. They thought that the probable life span of the programs being wrtitten then was about ten to twelve years, at the extreme.

    The global computer community collectively spent SIXTY-FIVE BILLION-WITH-A-"B"-DOLLARS correcting the gazillion lines of computer program code to avoid a world-wide meltdown. There were, in fact, quite a few problems, but the problems that did occur were minimized and hushed up. No planes fell from the sky. No electric grids stopped working, and society did not collapse. As a matter of fact, some companies posted all-time record highs in productivity and sales, because of the huge increase in demand for generators, freeze-dried food, water purifiers, etc. My wife and I stockpiled an eight months supply of food in our home. We are probably the best supplied on our block, but we succeeded in encouraging about half the block to stockpile food, water and medical supplies. One of my neighors sneered at the whole idea (I never liked this asshole) and sarcastically said "Well, if there's a blackout, I'll just come over to your house." I said, "Better bring a gun, because I won't give you a god-damned thing. I'm telling you right now, you need to start stockpiling. If you choose to let your family go hungry, that's YOUR problem." On New Year's Eve we fired up the neighborhood CB network and did a radio check. We had eleven CB'ers check in.

    New Year's Day, 2000, I actually felt a little disappointed, as well as relieved. On the one hand, I was glad we weren't faced with konked-out phones and traffic signals, but on the other hand, I felt like some of the people I had talked to would blame me for convincing them., and of course, a couple of them said "Boy, do I feel stupid for listening to you." But several others said "I stayed up and watched it on TV last night, and the government was taking it dead serious. I think we did the right thing, even if it turned out okay. I could have used some more hurricane supplies anyway."

    Since then, there have been a few other scares. On 9/11 my daughter called me from her high school, all upset and said "Dad! How many gas masks do we have?!!" And I said, "Seven. Why?" "Oh. I was worried." "Well, we've got plenty. Come home if you feel scared." "Nah, I'm okay." A lot of my neighbors wanted to go buy supplies, but my wife and I didn't need to buy a single thing. We are already prepared.

    I'd love to have a rural home, all fortified and with shelters built underneath it, but realistically, I will probably never have that. Running from a disaster to your "retreat" is called "bugging out" in Preparedness jargon. Staying where you are and toughing it out is called "bugging in." I'm a bug-in kind of guy.

    I think living "off the grid," generating your own power, planting "urban gardens," (or in my case, "suburban gardens"), stockpiling food, distilling your own drinking water and other beverages, having photoelectric power cells on your roof, insulating your home for maximum efficiency, etc. are wonderful ideas. I also am a big believer in a bicycle-based transportation system, recycling, living as minimalist a lifestyle as possible, and cheap, efficient public transportation.

    And, of course, I am a 100% believer in being able to defend oneself and one's home and family. I have no desire to harm anyone, but I would not hestiate to use deadly force against any looter or predator. My neighbor owns a used car business. He intended to bring several trucks home to barricade our street if things got bad. We joked about digging fighting positions in the yards on the end of the block. He bought a new shovel. I bought thirty dollars worth of sandbags from my old militia unit commander, who owns a big construction company. We went around and asked people to dig out their old CB radios from the attic and get them tuned up and working again, since we assumed that the phones, pager system and cell phones would be out of service if there was a computer collapse. Several people did so. We used channel 10, the "westside" Houston CB channel as our channel.

    I guess, in retrospect, it was a little over the top, but a lot of people were very worried and upset that the crash might actually happen. My computer programmer buddies moved to newly acquired rural mountain property several weeks before Y2K. They got rich writing code during the last six months of 1999, working 16-hour days. But, of course, the "survivalists" were all just a bunch of paranoid, redneck bumpkins that the well-educated, sophisticated liberal elite laughed at for their preparations. My friends and I have thousands and thousands of rounds of 9mm, .38/357, .45 ACP, .223/5.56mm, 7.62x39mm and .308 Winchester/ 7.62mm NATO. We have stockpiles of food and supplies adequate to feed our families for months. We have generators, water purification equipment, pressure cookers (for autoclaves and stills), stockpiles of propane, gasoline, oil, kerosene lamp oil, etc. We are prepared to weather the storm COME WHAT MAY.

    But we "survivalists" are the stupid ones, the buffoons, right? If there is ever a genuine, no-shit national or global emergency, then we will see who is stupid and who is not, LOL. Meanwhile, I have enough whole grain wheat stored to last till the end of time!

    One last piece of advice: don't forget to stockpile a couple of can openers, LOL.
     
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  4. KING BLING

    KING BLING Guest

    KING BLING - Replied Jul 2, 2005

    Please document this wide spread belief by educated liberals and don't count among them comedians...

    When you can not, you will relaize that SOME people mock you not because you prepare for war or colapse, but more because you carry with your actions what seems like a desire for the end if for no other reason than so you can say 'you told us so.' You seem to assert your willingness <sometimes with the polite, 'I hope it doesnt but..'.> to kill or how close we are to civil war in every long winded rant you present...that is why I can't take you seriously.
     
  5. villain

    villain 12oz Veteran Member

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    villain - Replied Jul 2, 2005

    Alright, I'm glad Kabar is contributing because I know he is well versed on the subject.
    Note to self: Food preservation. This is something my own grandparents did regularly yet the art is completely lost to me. Eventually those canned and processed foods are going to run out... so preserving ones own food is absolutely necessary. Especially during winters. I will be gathering information on this.

    I think I'd rather bug out, though that is not as practical. I would bug in as a last resort though. That's good that you can attain a solidarity with your neighborhood because that's so many less people you have to worry about trying to rob your ass. You still have to deal with the less prepared neighborhoods though.
    Mass chaos would ensue.

    I've posted before about forming a collective to live off the grid, and even start our own nation. I was fucking serious. Having a self contained society would be the best way to prepare for and deal with this IMHO.

    We have the ability to create and sustain a society, with all of the modern amenities. Just have a look at this fab lab:

    http://fablab.net/
    More on the fablab:
    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-fab-lab.htm

    You could have your own industrial factory in your garage.
    Fabricating anything you can imagine.
     
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  6. KaBar2

    KaBar2 12oz Senior Member

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    KaBar2 - Replied Jul 2, 2005

    The right-wing phrase 'When the Shit Hits the Fan," (WTSHTF)sometimes written as "when TSHTF," is shorthand for the Big Collapse, or Mass Riots or whatever. The period after WTSHTF is called "The End of the World As We Know It,", or TEOTWAWKI (pronounced "tee-oh-TWAWK-ee"). It sounds like some Native American language or something, LOL.

    Two different stategies are called for to deal with TSHTF and TEOTWAWKI. Generally speaking, TSHTF is considered to be more or less like a free-for-all, with threats coming from every direction, and a great deal of street fighting, arson, explosions, gas stations looted and set on fire, banks and grocery stores attacked and looted, etc. In short, chaos and anarchy. The survivalists do not expect the police or the National Guard to be able to control anything. During TSHTF, the Bug-outs are planning on fighting their way to their retreats(hopefully unoccupied by local opportunists that snickered and sneered at the survivalists for worrying about the shit hitting the fan.) Many Bug-Outs that I know own big, heavy 4x4 vehicles with what can only be described as "roadblock-buster" bars on the front, and large capacity fuel tanks (preferably diesel) and bullet-rersistant panels in the doors, cab and engine housing. They aren't actually bullet proof, but they are kind of bullet resistant, kind of like a less dramatic Mad Max truck. Some of them have a removeable gun-mount post in the bed, so that a semi-automatic, belt-fed weapon could be mounted there, or perhaps a machine gun. (There are civilian versions of the M1919A1 that are legally owned, semi-automatic versions of the M1919A1 WWII machine gun. They cost around $1600.)

    Our militia unit knew several Federally licensed Class III machinegun dealers who let us shoot their stock for fun and to generate possible sales leads. None of us bought any, partially because of the expense, but mostly because of the hassle with the BATF to get a Class III tax permit so one could legally own a machine gun. Instead, we bought civilian versions of the Soviet machinegun (RPK) called the NHM-91, in 7.62x39mm caliber, and 75-round drum magazines to fit them. Machineguns are great, if you have a zillion-dollar logistics train airlifting you fresh ammunition. But for the militia? Too expensive to run. Several of our sister units had members who owned legal machineguns, but not us. If we had bought one, it would have had to be one chambered for 7.62mm NATO caliber. The M1919A1 has one version in this caliber, it was produced for Israel, and Israel sells disassembled parts kits from these guns to U.S. surplus dealers, but reactivating one is a huge hassle, and very expensive because of the wonderful gun laws in the U.S. Rich people can afford a $10,000 machinegun, no problem. Us poor folks gotta do without. Other 7.62mm NATO machine guns are the Vietnam-era M60, and the modern M240G (the machinegun currently in service in the U.S. armed forces.)
    These Bug-Outs are anticipating strong resistance to their movement, either by the government, or by local thugs who wish to rob refugees, or criminal gangs or whatever. Whoever it is, the Bug-Outs intend to get where they want to go, and if they have to kill a bunch of people who are trying to stop them, I guess they'll do just that. Many of them belong to groups, and they intend to move in what is more or less like an armed column, ready to defend themselves against whomever.

    The Bug-Ins are much more circumspect. They intend to stay right where they are, form a defensive position, and drive off any outsiders who attempt to come in. They will let looters burn down the Wal-Mart, but it's death for anybody who attacks their neighborhood. Oftentimes they have their eye on a piece of empty land close to the neighborhood, like a park or a big vacant lot, where they intend to put in a large garden, and defend it from looters. They usually have strong connections with their neighbors, and keep their preparations hardly visable to the outside. They are pretty much systematic in their approach: water, food, medical supplies, fuel, power, communications, defense. If you start thinking about how much water you use, and how difficult it would be to obtain drinkable water if the municipal water supply failed. . .it would be BAD. Houston has about four million people in the metropolitan area. If the water system failed, we would be killing each other over water in a week or less.

    PLAN ON DIGGING A WELL. It may be dirty, muddy swill, but at least you'll have something to drink when the taps run dry. Better plan on how to get the water OUT of the well, too.

    Stored food is #1 priority. It takes TIME to grow a garden or raise chickens, etc. Most people in Houston haven't seen a live chicken or duck in twenty years. We always joked that the biggest risk to your guard dog is your neighbor's barbeque pit.

    Medications, First Aid supplies, books on First Aid, childbirth, "Ditch Medicine," "War Surgery," "Where there is No Doctor," "Where there is no Dentist," etc. You will need a stockpile of medicine, both over-the-counter and prescription medicines, including painkillers and antibiotics. You will need the basic surgical tools, scalpels, blades (scalpel blades are removeable), retractors, various kinds of surgical needles, hemostats of various sizes, surgical thread, catgut, silk, etc. You will need syringes and needles, alcohol, hydrogen peroxide, Betadine solution, bandages, tape, wire for splints, cotton padding, plaster of Paris, casting gauze. Aspirin, Tylenol, ibuprofen in large quantities, cold remedies, Benadryl, topical anti-fungal ointment like Tinactin and also vaginal micronazole for girls and women (for yeast infections.) You'll need several different kinds of antibiotic ointments, and oral antibiotics. You'll need just about every kind of First Aid and medical supplies you can imagine, and a bunch you did not think of.

    We tested numerous kinds of radios, and we were not pleased. After extensive field testing, we decided to go with CB radio, both 23 and 40 channel models, and 2-meter HAM radios. The 2-meter HAM radios also handled 440cm, if memory serves. (I wasn't a communications guy, I was involved in selecting weapons and ammunition.) We rejected VHF/UHF (no penetration in dense woods or rolling hills) and FMRS. Some of our sister units swore by "hunter" VHF/UHF rigs, but our guys did not like them.

    The best, by far, were CB's running a footwarmer, and HAM radios. Some of those guys bumped their CB's up with a linear amplifier to around 250 or 500 watts (this is illegal--a legal radio can only be 5 watts, so don't do it.) You could practically pick them up on an ALICE pack frame. We were getting about 7 miles out of a vehicle-mounted CB, and about 10-15 miles out of a mobile 2-meter without the repeater tower. With the repeater, about 65 miles, but in a real emergency, we figured the HAM repeater on Southwest Memorial Hospital's roof would be the first to go.

    The higher the antenna, the wider the broadcast. (CB's and HAM are line-of-sight broadcast radius, from the tip of your antenna to the "horizon" of your broadcast radius, so the higher the antenna, the farther your signal will go.) Some people would carry a compound bow and shoot a di-pole antenna on a thin rope up into a tall tree, communicate, then pull the antenna and the rope back down. We also built "backpack" radios using a 40-channel CB mounted on an ALICE pack frame, and a counter-balanced military surplus PRC-25 antenna, powered by 12 volt deer-feeder gel-cell batteries.

    More later, gotta go eat dinner.
     
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  7. Dick Quickwood

    Dick Quickwood 12oz Loyalist

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    Dick Quickwood - Replied Jul 3, 2005

    i haven't though much seriously about about this subject, except on how to help end the human race haha. i sort of have my own farm in the middle of nowhere, except it's not mine and was inherited by my aunts and uncles who will probably sell it. i've always had the feeling i would regret them selling it some day, but not so much now. it's not very good for growing vegetables because of the lack of rainfall and grasshoppers. we certainly would be in trouble in the event of no electricity, because the well is operated by an electric pump. there is a pond with dirty water.
     
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  8. flymonk

    flymonk New Jack

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    flymonk - Replied Jul 3, 2005

    anyone know any websites on this? Wow, that would be ironic.
     
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  9. villain

    villain 12oz Veteran Member

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    villain - Replied Jul 3, 2005

    villain - Rank: 12oz Veteran Member - Messages:
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  10. KaBar2

    KaBar2 12oz Senior Member

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    KaBar2 - Replied Jul 3, 2005

    Both of those addresses are excellent--Warlord is actually somebody I have corresponded with in the past and discussed various ideas. The articlle on "survival preparations in an apartment" is very good, and probably a lot more germane to the lives of the people on 12 oz. than my experiences and preparations.

    The biggest hurdle to overcome is adopting a "survivalist mindset." For instance, about 99% of preparedness is having enough imagination to think "Gosh, what would happen if the freeway bridges to Gotham got blocked by a burning gasoline tanker?"

    This kind of thinking is easier if you have some experience. If you live in South Central and witnessed the Rodney King riots, nobody has to work too hard to convince you that you could suddenly find yourself surrounded by rioting idiots and the police withdrawing and cordoning off your side of town and abandoning it to burn.

    On the other hand, if you've never been in a fist fight, and have never seen any crime or "civic disorder," you may be emotionally convinced that "That sort of stuff never happens here in Maplewood."

    WRONG. It can fucking happen ANYWHERE.

    A lot of survivalism (for me) is just thinking a certain way. For instance, I always fill up my truck when the tank reaches "half full." It's exactly the same amount of gasoline and money, but if I fill it on the 1/2 mark instead of waiting until it's on "E," I always have 150 miles of gas in my tank. Most cars and trucks, regardless of size, have a tank good for about 300 miles. So just stop waiting. Fill it up when it hits "1/2."

    I carry the usual car repair stuff in my truck, but I also carry what's called a "bug-out bag," or BOB. A BOB is supposed to give you a fighting chance of reaching home or getting away from an urban disaster if your vehicle is disabled or caught in some huge traffic jam. It's just an old school backpack filled with stuff like liters of water, energy bars, a couple of cans of pork and beans, a spoon, a P-38 can opener, a First Aid kit, maps of Houston and Texas, extra socks, a baseball cap, a rain slicker, a flashlight, a radio that takes "AA" batteries, EXTRA "AA" batteries and so forth, $100 in small bills and rolls of quarters, a good knife, a box of .38 Special ammunition and a box of .22 LR ammunition and assorted other things. If things went south and my truck was disabled, and there was no bus service, I'd just start hiking towards home. I have a Concealed Handgun License, so I always have a pistol(s) either on me or in the truck.

    This kind of stuff is not adequate for survival in the long term, and it's purpose is just to get you back to your primary survival cache.

    WOMEN, in particular, should carry a BOB in their cars, and should include a couple of cans of Mace or other pepper spray to deter attackers. My wife used to be very uncomfortable with the idea of shooting an assailant. Then she got mugged for her purse. Now she says she would have no problem whatsoever pulling the trigger. I asked her, "Do you want to buy some pepper spray?" and she said, "No, my .38 will do the job." Many women feel initially reluctant to defend themselves, but a little EXPERIENCE with criminals, and they become pretty hard-hearted.
     
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  11. flymonk

    flymonk New Jack

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    flymonk - Replied Jul 3, 2005

    good topic and sites, thanks. what is that nickname ofr a P-38 can opener? I used to know it, it was old military slang. (they used to have meals before there were MRE's and they came with these can openers for the beans or fruit or whatever was in them)
     
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  12. Dick Quickwood

    Dick Quickwood 12oz Loyalist

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    Dick Quickwood - Replied Jul 3, 2005

    Mr. Kabar, there's an old "410" shotgun that lays around, any advice on figuring out if it's safe to use without blowing up?
     
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  13. KaBar2

    KaBar2 12oz Senior Member

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    KaBar2 - Replied Jul 3, 2005

    The military can opener's nickname is "P-38," because back during WWII, the Army Air Corps had a pursuit aircraft called the P-38 "Lightning." The P-38's main use was against tanks, and the troops called it "The Can Opener." It had an automatic cannon in the nose that shot holes in enemy tanks very well.

    When the Army introduced it's nifty little can openers, designed to be worn on one's dog-tags, the troops wryly nicknamed it the "P-38," after the tank-busting aircraft. During Vietnam, the troops called this same can opener a "John Wayne."

    A shotgun is a rather low-pressure firearm. It would have to be VERY old to be dangerous. There was once a common type of steel used in shotguns called "Damascus" steel, These shotgun barrels were formed by repeatedly folding over and hammering high-carbon-content steel, giving the barrels a curious marbled appearance. (If you ever see one, you'll immediately recognize what I'm describing. They are quite pretty, but very weak.)

    A .410 gauge shell does not have much power (compared to a 12 ga.), and the shotguns that fire .410's were often rather inexpensively made. It is considered a "boy's" shotgun mostly, generally a good companion gun to a bolt-action .22LR rifle. They are good for rabbits, squirrels and other small game, and will DEFINATELY KILL A HUMAN BEING, so be careful with it. The range is kind of short, but a .410 single-shot would be a great survival shotgun. If it shoots okay, buy a bunch of different kinds of shotgun shells for it. They even make slug rounds for .410's, so technically, you could hunt deer or hogs. (If you shoot at a feral hog, make damned sure you don't miss. Most people who hunt hogs use a much bigger firearm than a .410, and usually a repeater, just in case they miss the first time.)

    First order of business is to THOROUGHLY CLEAN IT. Make sure the barrel is FREE OF ANY OBSTRUCTION WHATSOEVER. Then, I would either take it to a gunsmith or gun shop and have him check the "headspace," or I would duct-tape it to a tree and fire it using a LONG STRING tied to the trigger. Shotguns headspace on the rim of the shell (all shotgun shells are "rimmed," nobody makes a "rimless" shotgun shell.) The only way the headspace of a .410 shotgun could be damaged would be if someone fired a high-pressure .41 caliber round for a .41 revolver through it. Even then, it's unlikely. The other big concern would be a bulged, bent or cracked barrel.

    Most likely, it's okay. I say "Clean it, and get out the duct tape and kite string." Once you back off and yank the string, and it goes "bang," eject the cartridge and examine it closely. You especially want to note if the primer is bulged out backwards from the primer cup, flattened or smooshed in any way. (Other than dented by the firing pin, which is normal, of course.) A flattened, smooshed primer might be a sign of excessive headspace (because there is too much room behind the shell, and the pressure forces the primer backwards against the face of the breech, where the firing pin hole is.) If the spent shell looks okay, most likely the gun is fine. Shoot it five or six times, and examine each empty closely. If they all look okay, I wouldn't worry about it any more. Before you fire a shotgun, ON EACH OCCASION, check and make sure the barrel is free of any obstruction, and MAKE SURE you only have ONE gauge of shotgun shells in your pocket. A 20 gauge shell will fall into a 12 ga. barrel and could block it. Then you might accidently load a 12 ga. behind it, and blow the gun up, LOL. But of course, this can't occur with the little .410, it's as small a shotgun shell as they make.
     
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  14. angelofdeath

    angelofdeath 12oz Elite Member

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    angelofdeath - Replied Jul 3, 2005

    also if the .410 is a damascus twist, make sure you dont fire any kind of "hevi" shot or steel shot, or "hi power." its designed for the lead only shells. also dont fire slugs unless your positive its an open choke, although, most .410's are i think. the ironic part is, .410 shells are damn near twice as much as your normal box of target load 12guage's. i found this out recently, my little brother got his first .410. so i went to by some rounds for him, i grabbed a case of 12 guage size 8 target loads for skeet shooting for 32$. go to grab a couple boxes of .410's, the cheapest box is 11.99 for 25 shells. looked around and found some target loads for 7.99. slugs were 6.99 for 5.
     
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  15. mackfatsoe

    mackfatsoe 12oz Veteran Member

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    mackfatsoe - Replied Jul 3, 2005

    definitely interesting reads here.

    I've never personally experienced warfare or riots on a large scale, so this type of stuff does seem distant and almost unreal to me. But Kabar, I find it kind of unbelievable that you think it's necessary to have thousands of rounds of ammunition and a concealed handgun liscence.
     
    mackfatsoe - Rank: 12oz Veteran Member - Messages:
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