SOMALIA

There is something entirely new going on in Somalia. I don't know how much of a chance it has of success, but it's at least worth noticing.

Somalia was the site of the little military tragi-comedic drama that resulted in the movie "Black Hawk Down." I have, myself, posted statements on this site referring to Somalia as a "Third World shithole" and advocating that the U.S. and Europe simply allow them to starve, since they bite the hand that feeds them.

HOWEVER--it has come to my attention that there is a serious effort afoot to try and maintain Somalia as what is called a kritarchy (a government by judges, very much like what is described in the Bible as existed among the Jews after Moses received the Law.)

This type of government makes the tribe responsible for the actions of an individual. So if Muhammad is a member of the Hawiye tribe, and he robs a bank, his entire tribe is held accountable and must make the theft good. Of course, families are members of tribes, and the group of tribes (six in Somalia) make up a "Nation." In this case, the Somali nation, just as the various Native American tribes of the Souix make up the "Souix Nation." If a young Souix robbed the First National Bank of Iowa, the entire Souix nation would be held accountable, and would have to repay the stolen money. Correspondingly, the tribes are responsible for controlling and taking care of their members. There are no nursing homes in a society of this nature. Individuals belong to families. Families belong to tribes. Cousin marriage is encouraged, because it strengthens family bonds. Tribes belong to Nations.

The various tribal councils of the six tribes of Somalia are seriously trying to establish a means of providing "estates" on tribal land (similar to the way that only Mexican citizens may own land within 50 miles of the Mexican coast. Foreigners may only "lease" land, albeit, for 99 years.)

In this way, the tribes can continue their traditional life, and Europeans (and presumably Americans) could come to Somalia, lease a piece of beautiful coastline, for 99 years (or whatever) build a house there, or a hotel or some other business, employ Somalis and live dirt cheap. When the lease is up, however, it reverts to it's original owners, the tribe who owns the land.

There are NO TAXES in Somalia. (I did not know this.) There are police and local governments, but they are very weak, and report to the local tribal leaders. The chief reason that warlords get support is that each tribe is afraid that one of the other tribes, or the U.N., or some outside power will come into Somalia and try to establish a strong central government.

Think of Somalia as the "Confederate States of Somalia" except that they won the civil war, and the central government was dismantled.

Look at your computer screen closely. Do you see this large pie? It is CROW PIE, and Ka-Bar is taking a great big bite. (crunch, crunch.) Mmmm. Wonderful. I just love having to admit I was wrong.

fascinating

i was hoping for pictures of corpses

^ you just took the best two positions ..

anyway....thats kinda great..self rule of the people..interesting what comes out of the world when greed isn't the primary motivator for things

Originally posted by KaBar

 

I have, myself, posted statements on this site referring to Somalia as a "Third World shithole" and advocating that the U.S. and Europe simply allow them to starve, since they bite the hand that feeds them.

 

How can you just overgeneralize an entire group of people by the decisions its government makes? Do YOU agree with every decision the American government makes? Do you feel responsible for every choice George Bush makes? The way you think, you are responsible for every single action any US citizen makes whether they are an angel or devil. You talk about 'they they they' but who the hell is 'they'? Do you think a baby being born in Somalia chooses to live there, or that before its conception it vouched vote and support for whichever government (according to you), 'bites the hand that feeds them'?

You are so ignorant its amazing, considering how much experience you have, its a shocking that you have become so close-minded. Has old age shocked your tiring brain or what? I don't think Somalian babies deserve to starve because of the choices some crazy TNG honcho or the al-Ittihad al-Islamiya or fucking whoever... If you agree that babies and innocent civilians should be held account for occurances instigated by governmental groups out-of-line with US/European wishes then well you are disgusting. Most civilians have done nothing to deserve to be born into a country of famine, where they have no choice but to accept their fate.

I've also understood from previous posts that you've advocated the same mentality in regards to other 'third-world countries'... Its not the fault of mothers and babies when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and corruption reigns supreme within the ranks of the government and 'upper-class'!

No wonder so many people are anti-American... Its because of selfish, patriotic, shell-shocked fools like you who fail to see the bigger picture.

and again, kabar, you didn't make a point. just facts again.

i agree with the bone.

Some people can't be pleased. (Yawn.) The people of Somalia manage to try and create at least something good out of an admittedly shit sandwich situation, and you guys appraently can't see it.

Somali kids don't get a choice about where they live, who they are or the life they grow up in, any more than you do, or I do. In fact, a tribal society is a lot more restrictive and rigid a life in many ways than the post-industrial society we live in. You are who you are. Spare me the self-righteousness. Bill Clinton sent our soldiers there with inadequate tank and air support. It was a major fuck-up, and he later admitted it was. The Somali warlord, Aideed, I think it was, immediately realized the U.S. military tactical weakness and exploited it. Clinton should have then hammered his ass from the air, but, being an idiot, Clinton withdrew the U.S. troops.

I can see a Somali society in the future that uses it's empty, unspoiled beaches to bring in millions of First World tourist dollars. All they need to do is guarantee the safety and security of the tourists. They can use the fact that they have "no government" to allow Western corportations to base their headquarters there to avoid statist taxes from socialist dicksuckers in Europe and the United States. They could be rich, and free, if they did it right. A libertarian veneer over a traditional tribal/nation society.

Either you can see it or you can't. As long as they make sure nobody harms a single tourist, they will be rolling in money. One criminal in a place like Sayulita or Kerala costs the local economy hundreds of thousands of dollars (maybe millions) in lost tourist revenue. Nobody wants to get murdered in Paradise. They want to go, to enjoy themselves, and to come home with nice photographs and a tan, and empty pockets. Works out perfectly for the locals. Their worst problem (isolation from the First World economy) becomes their greatest asset. But, from what I hear, Port Moresby has the worse crime rate in the world. Go figure. Sort of like Jamaica, only in the Western Pacific. Wretched poverty in the middle of paradise. But of course, in Jamaica you have a genuine ruling class and no genuine tribal structure to speak of, thanks to the legacy of BRITISH SLAVERY. Or perhaps, another example would be Brazil, but again, no tribal structure, due to the legacy of PORTUGESE SLAVERY. I won't belabor this point any more. Most of the slave trade was conducted on Africa's western coast, out of Zanzibar, Mali, Gold Coast, etc. Somalia had little or none, so far as I can tell, probably because they have been Muslim for so long. The Muslims cheerfully sold off the animists, though, from around 700 to the 1860's. Brazil, BTW, was the biggest customer, with about 35% of the business. The U.S. only received about 5% or so. Today, where is the only places in the world where slave markets still exist? Mali, Togo, Benin, Ghana, Nigeria and Burkina Faso. And the buyers? Cote d'Ivorie and Gabon, mainly, and some in Chad. Cruel and exploitive, for certain, and just like in times past, it's all about tribe and religion. And money and power. BUT NOT RACE. Race isn't important to slavers any more today than it was in 1633. The powerful dominate the powerless. It sucks, but what can one do? It's the way of the world, and certainly not just the good ol' U.S. of A.

Wait, what's your point? You are still replying with your usual bland over-generalized rhetoric while managing to allude every one of my points. You have managed to decrease your world-view into a marginals and statistics. Selfish..

allude means 'refer to'... what word did you really want?

well... that's not really a good choice of word, or words, either... theoretically, the 'points' should elude KaBar, not the other way around.

Yeah yeah yeah. The world is a fucked up place. KaBar has his opinion, people get what they deserve. Chickenbone jumps on his back which isn't helping the somalian kids any, and smart is a vocabulary nazi which always makes my day.

I thought that this was an interesting topic with or without a point. You dont need to learn a lesson from everydamn thing in life.

IM RICH BIAAATCH

Y'all got some excellent grammar

Uh, I guess my point was that although I stupidly talked shit about the Somalis in the past, it turns out that they've got more on the ball than I thought, and seem to have an admirable tradition of refusing to let strong central government get a foothold in their country. AS LONG AS THEY ARE ARMED and it's too much trouble to go jack around with them, they might pull it off. Their situation with a tribal society where nobody owns land except the tribe, and NO TAXES, along with "few" or "no" government services to speak of, will probably be able to exist unless their set-up to attract corporations backfires, and First World statists decide to go fuck them over because they are allowing big corporations to skate out of paying taxes. (What the hell--Burmuda does it. Cayman Islands does it. Turks and Caicos Islands does it. Why not Somalia?)

By The WAY--did any of you guys ever hear of a kritarchy bfore? I had never, ever seen that word before today. I think it's kind of fitting that a tribal society run by judges can even be seriously considered in the year 2003. Cool. Wonder if it will work? This is substantially different from sharia , like existed in Afghanistan and supposedly exists in Iran. And part of Nigeria, I think.

my 2 cents

Somalia IS a third world shit hole... what has driven corporate investment away in the past, and indeed through the future, is the fact that you have to live in a compound and hire a private army to protect your employees and assets. South Africa might be a good example, but for the aparthied. Still, the vast class differences characterize one possible Somali scenario. When the rich white folks are foreigners you are basically sowing the seeds for another Cuban revolution.

Also, with no central government and no police, who does the corporation complain to when they feel their rights have been infringed upon? The corporation is not a tribe...

Further, while corporations exert considerable effort to dodge or simply not pay taxes; Corporate leaders understand the fundamental neccessity of tax. Roads must be maintained. Tax provide one of the fundamental keys to infrastructure, stability.

Nobody WANTS a beat up chick with missing teeth and sagging tits but there's always somebody... Now, take the same beat up chick, drop 5 grand on her mouth and 2 grand on her chest, give her a bath and she's gonna be much farther along in the game. The same holds true for countries, except instead of mouth think 'airport' and instead of chest think 'paved highway'.

haha great analogy

Re: Y'all got some excellent grammar

Originally posted by KaBar

did any of you guys ever hear of a kritarchy?

That's a new one on me...

Haha damnit you guys got me... I'm really a monkey in the process of learning the English language, so don't shoot me down too hard. I'll get back to the discussion in a sec, I've got quite a few bananas to eat.

But i'll be back.

ooga ooga

be sure not to leave the banana peels on the floor, someone could slip and fall on them

Originally posted by Zee_Zee

how about : 'whilst managing to elude each of the points i made'

HAHA, you know, earlier I had some reply to this that eventually led to me saying:

"There's a reason Mushmouth wasn't the leader of the Junnkyard Gang"

but, I deleted it and decided nobody would catch the reference... just now, however, I saw a TV offer on Cartoon Network for Fat Albert on DVD and I realized that they were TOTALLY selling to my demographic (and encouraging me to push it on my kids, which probably isn't that bad but)... sad... I'm just gonna go be old now...

Anyways, back to my point... I understand what you guys (KaBar and Smart) are saying but what I was doing was basically ragging on KaBar for reducing an entire group of people into a demographic statistic. A statistic in his mind which 'deserves to starve', in other words.

I just don't think its right for someone to disregard human beings that belong to a specific country because that countries governmental system doesn't coincide with his/her political beliefs. That’s just plain ignorant and wrong! So many things in the world that you don't experience directly have become mind-numbing due to the onslaught of statistical information and political jargon that really skews the reality of ones perception toward real human lives. What if your best friend was Somalian and he had to feed and take care of his babies and wife in the midst of starvation and political strife? You would definitely connect with him and feel his struggle and I would bet that you would have an entirely different outlook on the situation and your emotional connection to the circumstance would humanize you. Instead you are stuck over-generalizing an entire nation of people, as you have done in previous posts in regard to ‘third-world’ countries. You sit on your pedestal like an old happy lark while pretending like you dictate the lives of innocents. Fucking patriots… Too much pride in the world, not enough compassion and common sense.

And Smart you ARE old while I am young, lithe, sprightly, and beautiful. I am also full of compassion and pure thoughts.

Originally posted by Smart

HAHA, you know, earlier I had some reply to this that eventually led to me saying:

"There's a reason Mushmouth wasn't the leader of the Junnkyard Gang"

 

but, I deleted it and decided nobody would catch the reference... just now, however, I saw a TV offer on Cartoon Network for Fat Albert on DVD and I realized that they were TOTALLY selling to my demographic (and encouraging me to push it on my kids, which probably isn't that bad but)... sad... I'm just gonna go be old now...

i sound like mushmouth when i talk...seriously....all i hear is what? huh? from people that dont know me, people close just go with it even when they dont understand

Originally posted by chicken bone

Anyways, back to my point... I understand what you guys (KaBar and Smart) are saying but what I was doing was basically ragging on KaBar for reducing an entire group of people into a demographic statistic. A statistic in his mind which 'deserves to starve', in other words.

 

I just don't think its right for someone to disregard human beings that belong to a specific country because that countries governmental system doesn't coincide with his/her political beliefs. That’s just plain ignorant and wrong! So many things in the world that you don't experience directly have become mind-numbing due to the onslaught of statistical information and political jargon that really skews the reality of ones perception toward real human lives. What if your best friend was Somalian and he had to feed and take care of his babies and wife in the midst of starvation and political strife? You would definitely connect with him and feel his struggle and I would bet that you would have an entirely different outlook on the situation and your emotional connection to the circumstance would humanize you. Instead you are stuck over-generalizing an entire nation of people, as you have done in previous posts in regard to ‘third-world’ countries. You sit on your pedestal like an old happy lark while pretending like you dictate the lives of innocents. Fucking patriots… Too much pride in the world, not enough compassion and common sense.

well, just speaking for myself... I supported the war in Iraq and caught a bunch of shit around here. I used YOUR argument, 'think of the people'.

I opposed Seeking when he was giving big ups to Fidel Castro exactly because, at times in my life, I have been surrounded by Cubans, both friends and strangers. My position is that Seeking was blindly supporting Castro and ignoring the populous. Again, your argument.

In Somalia, the people aren't revolting. In fact, as KaBar said, they've got some sort of plan in effect. I have no problem letting them have whatever for of government they want but that still doesn't change the fact that Somalia is a shit-hole... maybe in 20 years they'll have turned the place around, who knows.

Originally posted by chicken bone

And Smart you ARE old while I am young

Well, I'm still lithe, sprightly and beautiful so we're even there. I am also not devoid of compassion and I don't allow my 'impure' thoughts to dictate my actions so... HEY! HEY! HEY!

Chicken Bone

Love that handle, by the way---uh, I don't really care what political position or religion or anything that the Somalis espouse. My one and only beef with them was that they shot up a bunch of American helicopters and Special Forces troops. We sent them help, and they fucked our guys over. Therefore, fine, let the French or the British or the Brazilians send them help from now on. We should be generous to people that treat us decently and refuse to help people who do us wrong. There was no reason for them to continue to attack wounded Special Forces troopers. They could have just withdrawn and allowed them to be picked up. Or they could have accepted a surrender, and given them medical help (what little they have to give, which problably wasn't much.)

By the way, ever see the Somali flag? It is exactly the same as the flag of the Confederacy known as the "Bonnie Blue" flag. All blue, with a single white star. This same design flew over Texas during the War for Texas Independence, in some parts of the republic. (The rest of the republic flew a flag just like the Mexican tri-color of red, white and green, but with the numbers "1824" in the center, to signify the Texican support of the Mexican Constitution of 1824, which Santa Ana abrogated.)

The real problem we had in Somalia, as I said before, was Clinton sending our guys in there without overwhelming force to back them up, so that the Somalis would have the good sense to not attack us. I think (I hope) that's a mistake our people will never make again--it came from lack of military experience on the President's part. Clinton should have left the generals alone to run the show, but instead, he interfered, and cut back on the size and strength of the Somali "humanitarian mission."

The Somalis have to prove, if they want corporate patronage, that the corporations are safe and secure if they bring their bankroll to Somalia. It will only take one rip-off to ruin it. Look at Switzerland---once word got around that they ripped off the bank accounts and gold bullion of the Jews that the Nazis killed, nobody really trusts them any more. How can one be certain that the "gnomes of Zurich" won't rip off my millions too? Not that I have any millions, but, you know.

In order for the Somalis to become a modern society, they must improve their schools, hospitals, and banking system. I tried for an hour to find a single recognized banking house in the principal city, Mogadishu. None exists, that I could find. I tried to find a single importer of automobiles or trucks. None. Not one. What is imported is Qaad (khat) from Kenya, and cigarettes, and guns and ammunition from Ethiopia. Somalis love guns, and the proliferation of guns, ammunition of every type, formerly Soviet rocket launchers like the RPG-2, -7 and -13, formerly Soviet Kalasnikov AK-47 and AK-74 rifles, hand grenades and other forms of military hardware are evident everywhere. There are six major "pirate" runways just in Mogadishu alone. Mercenary pilots, either African-born Asians flying Cessnas, or renegade Russians flying huge Tupolov and Antonov military transports, fly into dusty scrapes of smuggler airstrips in the outskirts of Mogadishu, landing with the plane bristling with gunmen. The airstrips resemble barbed-wire encrusted fortresses made of rock walls and bullet-riddled steel shipping containers, with "markets" roofed over with ventilated corrugated iron roofing. The Qaad, guns and cigarettes come in, and planeloads of refugees with cash, eager to escape, go out. The locals know the names of the most celebrated Russian and Indian pilots, much the way Americans know the names of sports stars or entertainment figures. The pirate transports come in once or twice a day, and crowds of Somalis with bundles of banknotes push and shove for a chance to buy their cargo.

The normal residents not involved in the guns and Qaad trade struggle just the same with the charcoal brokers. Most of the city cooks with charcoal braziers, a reason that most of Somalia's trees have long since disappeared into charcoal ovens.

School is a possibility only for the children of the (relatively) wealthy. Having a son in a Qaad smuggler's militia means the family will eat and have some measure of security. Arranging the marriage of a daughter is difficult. The disparity between the super-powerful and the destitute is wide, and growing wider. Hospitals exist, but supplies and equipment is in very short supply. Major public health problems abound. Public utilities, like electricity or pure water barely exist. Much of Mogadishu has no running water, apparently, and electricity is provided by small entrepreneurs with a generator and wires strung every which way.

Much of the country is zonked out every day on Qaad. Qaad was only introduced (from Kenya) in the 1970's. Prior to that, narcotics was not much of a problem in Somalia.

It would have to be a brave businessman to bring a corporate headquarters into that, I think.

fuck your troops protecting americas intrest.

america doesent give a fuck about any country unless they have something to give the us in the end.

Somalia...

I faintly remember living there in the 80s when I was tiny.

These trucks would drive around Mogadishu, guys would jump out and grab able bodied young men throw them in the back of the truck and drive them up north to fight.

There were also alot of monkeys running around.

T.T. Boy

True. What's your point again?

Didn't really have one. Just reminiscing.

Sorry, Ink Lunatic

We cross communicated because I didn't direct my reply properly. It sounded like I was dismissing your comment and I didn't intend that at all. Please tell us whatever you can remember about Somalia. Were you born there?