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old school quotes in new school songs

Discussion in 'Channel Zero' started by Vanity, Nov 25, 2003.

  1. Vanity

    Vanity Veteran Member

    Joined: Apr 11, 2000 Messages: 7,673 Likes Received: 6
    alright.. i listen to a lot of this new rap stuff, and a lot of cats come w/ quotes from old school artists.
    elpee took kool g rap
    the roots took k-solo
    the bush babees took slick rick
    common takes a lot of old furious 5 type stuff
    mos def takes shit all over the place (krs, biz, newcleus)
    edan took parrish smith

    and well, what do ya'll think of it? is it biting? or just paying homage? it often brings a smirk to my face as i recognize it, and a lot of it is so blatent, that they have to assume that heads are going to notice... but they also have to know that some 16 year old isn't going to know that it isn't their own line (how many kids knew that that blackstar track was just p is still free?)... anyway.. what ya'll think? biting homage?

    or you can just post lines you recognize... that is all.
     
  2. ClueTwo

    ClueTwo Veteran Member

    Joined: Nov 30, 2001 Messages: 9,016 Likes Received: 117
    People always rob from the Beatnuts...
     
  3. Abracadabra

    Abracadabra Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Dec 28, 2001 Messages: 22,906 Likes Received: 113
     
  4. Smart

    Smart Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Apr 14, 2000 Messages: 17,017 Likes Received: 175
    This has been going on for a long time but, I think it's acceptable if it's done right...

    I mean, it's kind of the Vanilla Ice scenario... you could be blatantly ripping off a top 40 song and a black frat chant but...

    There's also the 'covers'... kinda weak when Snoop did Slick Rick, kinda dope when Buckshot did Rakim...

    Back in the day in Miami there was the Jam Pony DJ's whose trademark sound was playing a song and interjecting their own rhymes over the top... not like jacking the beat, literally playing the song and dropping out words and lines to change the rhymes...
     
  5. 455

    455 Guest

    I don't like how beats get recycled.....I know most of you have heard some top40 shit lately with that in mind so I won't make any comparisons.....but...

    Pete Rock and C.L. Smooth-"Searchin'"(remix) is close to Heltah Skeltah-"Let Tha Brains Blo"....listen to them.(searchin' came out before Heltah)
    There is a Ras Kass song on "Rassassination" that took the beat from Big Shug-"Crush"..."Crush" came out 2 years earlier....
    here is an older one.....Das Efx-"They want efx" is the beat from Lord Finesse-"Funky Technician"---the latter came out 3 years earlier...

    it just goes on and on and on.....
     
  6. Vanity

    Vanity Veteran Member

    Joined: Apr 11, 2000 Messages: 7,673 Likes Received: 6
    the homage can be done really well... mobb deep's paid in full is fresh... their own rhymes, own beat.. but they just used rakim's style and eq'd the voice to sound like him

    common's i used to love her went well w/ it because of the subject matter.

    edan and elpee used it for a chorus, so it's not like theyr were claiming it as blatently... mos can kinda push it though... i know a lot of it is the fault of the uneducated listener, but i think they should take that into account.

    oh, and das efx also used the same sample as ll's pink cookies in a plastic jar (i think kane used it too)... but recycled beats are nothing new... i mean, how many times have you heard the drums from impeach the president or skull snaps?

    but anywho.. i want to kinda keep this thread focused on lyrics, since hiphop production is sample based anyway, and that'll bring up a different topic entirely
     
  7. Abracadabra

    Abracadabra Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Dec 28, 2001 Messages: 22,906 Likes Received: 113
    Vanity
    Elite Member

    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: midwest
    Posts: 4444
     
  8. DETO

    DETO 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Apr 25, 2002 Messages: 11,316 Likes Received: 138
    Smart, what's up with them Wonk Saggin T-Shirts...;)
     
  9. DETO

    DETO 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Apr 25, 2002 Messages: 11,316 Likes Received: 138
    :lol: FUCK The Source... :lol:
     
  10. Vanity

    Vanity Veteran Member

    Joined: Apr 11, 2000 Messages: 7,673 Likes Received: 6
    word.. fuck the source... though, if you want to hear a record by the guys that founded it (they went to harvard), look for a group called big men on campus.
     
  11. TEARZ

    TEARZ Guest

    which blackstar track...?
    because the one i'm thinking of is "stop the violence"... you know, "one two three the crew is called BDP, and if you wanna go to the tip top, stop the violence in hip hop wyo..." which became the blackstar theme...
    chi ali took the p is still free in "age ain't nothing but a #."
    "the girls look so good..." which later got taken by gang starr for ex to the next...
    but like smart said, it's been going on for ages... i don't think it was biting- it's more referencing. if you want me to get all nerdy about it, i will cuz that's the type of guy i am... really, the dialogue with, or referencing of a past statement or poem, but slightly changing it for your own purposes is a really old, longstanding african american tradition... many call it "signifying," sometimes called "playing the dozens."
    while i'm not a mosdef fan at all, i can't really hate on him or someone like edan because i know that they would say that they're paying homage, "talking back" to texts behind them. it's been going on since the dawn of hip hop really, but we're a few generations into it now and the roots are getting lost. which is fine... there will always be grouchy old guys like us around to say "yo, listen sonny, that line you're singing is really an EPMD line."
     
  12. Smart

    Smart Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Apr 14, 2000 Messages: 17,017 Likes Received: 175
    Here it go...
     
  13. Vanity

    Vanity Veteran Member

    Joined: Apr 11, 2000 Messages: 7,673 Likes Received: 6
    nah tears.. i think you're thinkin the p is still free remix, not stop the violence...stop the violence has a chill beat... but yeah, same lyrics, we're thinking of the same beat though... but yeah.. and i can see it most in edan than anyone (like tribute 88 and prisoners of war).. but he straight up says it in the song.. mos is more subtle ("you can't trust a big but and a smile")...
    i really appreciated it though in kool g rap & akinelye's break a bitch neck ("girls look soooooooo good... but it don't mean shit to me if there's one less bitch up in the neighborhood")
    def squad re-did rapper's delight (which was wack.. same beat, same lyrics, no reason to release it as a single)
    mos redid jam on it

    i get what you're saying tears... perhaps i don't know all the details of a griot... but it seems like cats could at least give there person they're quoting a shout

    i could call out freestyle fellowship for the jabberwockey, but they didn't really make a song out of it, they just read it.

    and man, im not that old! :D

    eminem's- real shady please stand up is a k-soloism
     
  14. TEARZ

    TEARZ Guest

    i wasn't talking the beat... just the words, like you said, and that blackstar single, the 1st one, the chorus is a modified "stop the violence." but parts of the beat are lifted too, from stop the violence... and that's a fact. :)

    my feeling, most of the time, is that it's the problem of the audience. most people who rap, are fans of hip hop and know what they're referencing even still... what's changed is that most rap listeners now are really pop listeners, so they're not gonna catch kool g rap references. forget about that, even recent shit; most kids think that mya coined the phrase "like whoa."

    it's part of a tradition bigger than rap is my feeling... but i hear what you're saying... i could list hundreds of songs... but it would be tedious and i'm tired. holla.
     
  15. Vanity

    Vanity Veteran Member

    Joined: Apr 11, 2000 Messages: 7,673 Likes Received: 6
    yeah, but if the rapper using the line knows that the audience isn't really going to get it, it seems kind of irresponsible on their part (that is.. assuming it's a dope line that kids are gonna quote... not some silly kool keith stuff (not that he doesn't have some dope lines)), and that they're getting theirs off of someone else... im tired too. :dazed:
     
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