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Las Vegas Shooting and the Gun Debate

Discussion in 'Channel Zero' started by misteraven, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Brink

    Brink Junior Member

    Joined: Mar 28, 2012 Messages: 196 Likes Received: 58
    I see the point that you're making. However, despite the founding fathers being incredibly visionary in the creation of a government, that does not mean they were 100% right in ever area. Simply because the right to bare arms as a part of a well regulated militia (which the US doesn't have, Switzerland does) is among the first amendments, doesnt mean it is infallible. One of the main arguments I have heard about taking a different approach to government, i.e following the Scandinavian model of democratic socialism, is that it wouldn't work in the US due to the difference in size of our countries, and the fact that many of the Scandinavian countries are largely homogeneous. However, when it comes to examining our own bill of rights under a critical eye, all of a sudden people seem to forget that our collection of colonies was very similar to what the Scandinavians have today. So, in a sense, we are operating on a system that was designed for an entirely different kind of country; yet, these guiding principles are supposedly unbreakable?

    also

    Fun Fact: The US is no longer even considered a democracy, but rather a flawed democracy. Which on the global scale ranks our government with that of Italy based on electoral process and pluralism; civil liberties; the functioning of government; political participation; and political culture.
     
  2. Hua Guofang

    Hua Guofang Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Oct 29, 2013 Messages: 1,759 Likes Received: 368
    1 - this wall of words may be interesting but it doesn't address the point at all that when the BoR and Constitution were formed the technology was completely different than what is fielded today. Maybe I missed something subtle in here but I get the feeling that you may have avoided the point.

    2 -
    Whilst you are right regards the numbers of crimes carried out by 'assault weapons' compared to handguns you seem to be ignoring all of the anti-gun efforts that go into GUN CONTROL. It's not AR-15 control but GUN control that is being sort after. Sure, you get the loudest calls after a major massacre but that doesn't mean you can ignore all of the other work that happens in between, like you have ignored in that post.

    you say that nobody addresses this issue and then talk about how Bloomberg et al have spent tens of millions of dollars trying to address the issue.
    You also seem to have forgotten about the programs and outcry during the Obama era
    You ignore all of the grass roots work that happens on the ground in gang affected areas.

    Are you sure you're being honest in the way you're thinking?

    Dude, you seriously have to step back and rethink things. This shit is CONSTANTLY on the news. There are massive foundations built up around curing cancer, supporting those dying with cancer and supporting families who have some one dying of cancer. The "obesity epidemic" even has a name, people write songs about it and I see it on the news all the time along with 'lose weight fast' stuff being pedaled to folk 24/7. And as for car safety, Ralph Nader made a whole political career based around the issue!!!


    This is why I did not want to get into the gun control issue in the first place because I feel that you are either extraordinarily biased or you are dishonest. I'm not trying to ad hominem you or be a prick, but I don't think it's possible to have a proper discussion on the matter when a lot of what you say is simply untrue (I even cited the laws in some countries that were counter to your claims and even that wasn't enough).

    I find the same with other folk that are on the extreme end of matters, regardless of which way they swing. Nothing can change their minds and accuracy doesn't seem to be important to them. Sorry mate, but just this post alone is an example of how you only seem to see the world in the way that supports your views, rather than what actually occurs.
     
  3. Dirty_habiT

    Dirty_habiT Administrator

    Joined: Mar 8, 2001 Messages: 18,107 Likes Received: 73
    I work in the medical industry and I think it's easy to mistake that every doctor and foundation built is there to help people rather than make money under the guise of helping people. A perfect example as of recent is Shkreli. Sure the guy was making drugs, but then he realized he could just jack the price as much as he wanted until he went into the "this isn't fair" territory. What is considered fair in this regard? How much mark up can you add to medical expenses to justify making people pay that kind of money for their health.

    I have two examples in the recent 5 years that affected me personally. Maybe more than that. I don't go to the doctor unless I feel like I'm dying, which, yes, you can say is a stupid way to think but I also think it's stupid to shell out money because you're scared. If you have a legit condition that requires you to go to the doctor then by all means do it, but until it's confirmed that I have something bad I will keep my money (and yes I have good insurance so it doesn't cost that much but that's not the point).

    Hua - In your opinion, what should be done to "control" guns? What would you do to stop things like the Ghost Gunner (https://ghostgunner.net/) from allowing criminals to possess weapons? If you were our leader for a day how would you put into motion the changes that would bring a positive outlook for gun control? I personally keep a gun right by my bed and it stays in the house right by my bed for when/if it is needed. I would be pretty unhappy with someone suggesting that I shouldn't be allowed to do this. If you mentioned it before, sorry, I'm just not going to read a lot of pages of long explanations. What I'm asking for here is cliff notes/bullet points on how you would make things better for everyone.
     
  4. Dirty_habiT

    Dirty_habiT Administrator

    Joined: Mar 8, 2001 Messages: 18,107 Likes Received: 73
    To take it a step further, even if you could outlaw the sell of all guns, you would have to consider that anyone with some machining/chemistry knowledge/tools would be able to make a weapon that operates just like a gun. This is a "you can't take the jungle out of the monkey" problem IMO. If someone wants to harm others it's a mindset thing, it's not a tool of choice thing. Sure hurting people with guns is easy to do, but so are so many other things. We don't outlaw rat poison because you can use it to harm people right? We don't keep you from buying bleach at the grocery store because it's poisonous? I'm still allowed to sharpen a stick even though it could be used to stab someone. Steal pipes can be used to beat people with, the list goes on and on. I'm going to go ahead and say that you aren't not going to get me to register rocks and sharpened sticks into my name because they can be used for evil.

    I think the high road here is to teach people to not be evil and fix the mental illnesses within our society. How that can be done isn't for me to figure out but I think that's the problem that can be focused on. Even if you tell someone that is a felon or mentally ill that it is not legal for them to possess a weapon, how are you ACTUALLY going to prevent them from getting one. People in jail stab eachother all the time when they're supposed to be in a very controlled environment and have no access to anything that can be used to harm someone. My main point here is that you can use just about anything that is freely available to hurt someone else, how do you fix that problem without addressing the problem of the person having the desire to harm someone?
     
  5. Soup

    Soup Elite Member

    Joined: Jul 24, 2002 Messages: 4,425 Likes Received: 283
    I dont think I've really posted on here in YEARS, but I type "12"into the url bar every fucking day out of muscle memory and hit enter. Found this thread today.

    People have gotten stupid and go straight the supreme court with all their issues. It's a private event. There should've been more security. If you're going to host a giant fucking cash-grab-event with tens of thousands of people, you need a fucking private militia to keep that many people safe. That's what rich people do at their big-ass events. Don't be low hanging fruit at a fucking music festival when america's at a pivotal time of upheaval and nobody values human life, especially not among country-rock-concert goers.

    This isnt evil. This isnt a mental disorder. It's societal. This is a nihlistic old man wanting to go out with the most toys. And the victims of this are a bunch of politically illterate people who've gotten too accustomed to our technocratic overlords creating an artificial sense of security. Get a gun, know your exits, and don't let the fucking herd mentality override your instincts of self preservation.

    BEfore we talk about gun control realize how strange and unusual the scenarios in which mass murders play out: gatherings in which obscene numbers of people cluster together in places the infrastructure wasnt really designed to handle, drawing unwanted eyes and creating bottlenecks for escape routes. From a security standpoint it's a fucking nightmare. Most people don't live in these situations so to think revoking gun control from normal life because these weird scenarios often manifest chaos... it doesnt make sense. It makes more sense to ban enormous, unnaturally large gatherings of people without proper private security precautions.

    NOT ONLY THAT but that's the only policy that's enforceable. Good fucking luck banning guns.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
    Dirty_habiT and One Man Banned like this.
  6. Fist 666

    Fist 666 Moderator Crew

    Joined: Jun 16, 2007 Messages: 14,096 Likes Received: 971
    What a couple of weeks to be without internets...

    Welcome back @Soup, hope all is well.

    I don't have time to fully catch up on this thread or to put forth a sound response, but I'm torn as fuck. Have been for a long time. Writing this off as "well, thats how shit is now, better pack or be a sucka" doesn't really work for me. Cough cough Sandy Hook.

    I'll have more time in the next couple weeks to catch up and give this some thought. Anyone near Asheville, NC hit me up for beers.
     
    Soup likes this.
  7. Ko SprueOne

    Ko SprueOne Senior Member

    Joined: May 8, 2004 Messages: 1,631 Likes Received: 99
    I'm skipping the Gun Debate part of this.

    I was in Vegas that same weekend doing some other sht along with going to the Grand Canyon and back. However, I don't even get to tell my vacation story though because as soon as the Vegas part is mentioned all discussion is diverted to the incident.

    FCK You, Vegas shooter(s)!
     
  8. theprotester

    theprotester Moderator Crew

    Joined: Dec 8, 2006 Messages: 10,835 Likes Received: 828
    How was the vacation though? Flicks?
     
  9. Ko SprueOne

    Ko SprueOne Senior Member

    Joined: May 8, 2004 Messages: 1,631 Likes Received: 99
    Vacation was great and yes, a few flicks that I'm putting together for the day in pies thread later.
     
  10. Hua Guofang

    Hua Guofang Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Oct 29, 2013 Messages: 1,759 Likes Received: 368
    Figired I'd try and wake the dead horse - this to me is one of the greatest benefits of having tight gun laws.

    If guns were abundant in Australia the is much greater likelihood that this guy would have been able to access the weapon and carry out the attack undetected until he began firing. Given we have tighter restrictions (no semis, police checks, laws on how they are to be stored, etc.) it makes these weapons harder to obtain and easier for CT investigators to detect dickheads like this when they are trying to get them. I love shooting but feel it's worthwhile to sacrifice my ability to own a bunch of gats so it makes it less likely for mass shootings like this to occur.

    I know they can't all be stopped, but this one was.



    Man Was Plotting New Year's Eve Mass Shooting, Police Say

    http://time.com/5039504/man-arrested-new-years-eve-shooting-melbourne/


    By Rod McGuirk / AP
    November 28, 2017
    (CANBERRA, Australia) — Australian police have arrested a man accused of planning a mass shooting for New Year’s Eve in a crowded Melbourne square, officials said Tuesday.

    Ali Ali, a 20-year-old Australian-born citizen with Somali parents, was trying to obtain an automatic rifle to attack the downtown Federation Square in Australia’s second-largest city, Victoria State Police Deputy Commissioner Shane Patton said.

    Thousands of revelers pack the square each year on New Year’s Eve.

    Ali downloaded instructions from an al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula website on how to launch a terrorist attack and how to use guns, Patton said.

    Patton described Ali as “a person who’s expressed an intention to try and kill as many people as he could through shooting them.”


    He said authorities have eliminated the threat of the attack, saying “the risk that was posed by this person has been removed.”

    Justice Minister Michael Keenan said police arrested four extremist last December over a similar plot to attack Federal Square and other public places in Melbourne over the Christmas-New Year period. The four will stand trial next year on terrorism charges.

    Keenan urged the public to continue with their usual routines over the period and expect to see a heavy police presence.

    “The aim of these terrorists is to foster fear and intimidation, but Australians should be able to go about their business secure in the understanding that the government has worked very closely with law enforcement and other security agencies to keep them safe,” Keenan told reporters.

    Counterterrorism police had been monitoring the latest suspect, a known extremist and a sympathizer of the Islamic State group, this year and detained him as he met with people in an attempt to acquire a gun, Patton said.

    Australia has strict gun laws and automatic weapons are banned from private ownership.

    The man is the 74th suspect arrested in Australia in 31 counterterrorism investigations since Australia’s terrorism threat level was elevated to “probable” in September 2014.

    The plot was the 14th that police say they had disrupted since the terrorist threat level was raised. Five plots have been executed.

    Ali appeared in a Melbourne court Tuesday on charges of preparing to commit a terrorist attack and collecting documents to facilitate a terrorist act. People convicted of those crimes in Australia face a maximum penalty of life in prison. Ali was not required to plea to the charges and did not apply to be released on bail.

    Search warrants were issued Monday at a home in a suburb where the suspect lived with his parents and siblings, at a relative’s address in another suburb and at a computer business where he once had a part-time job.
     
    Fist 666 likes this.
  11. misteraven

    misteraven Administrator

    Joined: May 7, 1999 Messages: 8,773 Likes Received: 312
    We can likely keep talking this issue to death and not get any closer. Since the last time I was posting in here, I came to a bit of an epiphany. Or perhaps a little more clarity to something I was already suspecting...

    Granted this ties back to some of the other discussions on here, such as the one on social media. Here are my thoughts...

    The world is obviously a huge place with massive diversity. What's really striking to me if the diversity within individual countries. I'm not talking about the 100+ languages spoken in some of our major cities like New York City, but rather the diversity that exists between parts of this country even amongst born and bred Americans. Having lived in New York City for 15 years, I obviously have a grasp of the day to day life and can understand and accept how in a place like New York City, with uniformed cops on every corner (and plenty of evidence of just as many undercover cops), cameras and even a fairly regular military presence... How in New York City, the populace believes and accepts that their safety in the responsibility of those people rather than their own responsibility.

    Likewise, I also saw how miserable most people seem to be on their daily commute in New York City - whether crammed onto the trains or navigating the crowds that clog up the sidewalks or the perpetual bumper to bumper traffic. How you rarely see more than a sliver of sky and the closest thing to nature would be greasy looking flocks of pigeons or the nasty sewer rats that have lost most fear of humans after living so closely with them for so long. It's easy to understand how in a place where the majority are barely treading water financially (and even the well educated and well placed often barely keep their head above water) how a young woman that unexpectedly finds herself pregnant would feel there are really no options beyond abortion, since even carrying a child to term to give birth and give it up to adoption would be well beyond what it would take to upset the very fragile dynamic of her reality.

    I understand this because I lived it for a long time and experienced the reality of what that is. As I've said a couple times here on the forum, I've now left New York City and live in the mountain of North West Montana.

    Out here, there are 10 full time cops and 6 volunteer deputies that are responsible for an area that is probably about 15x the size of Manhattan. Response times vary, but me being about 15 minutes outside of town has the average response time at about 45 minutes according to to a deputy I spoke to and though I'm rural, I'm not nearly as rural as this area gets. When there are major incidents out here, the sheriff literally reaches out to retired special operations and government people that happen to live out here (My town has generated an unordinary high number of Navy SEALs). If they need more manpower, they assemble posse's. It's common to see people open carry pistols on their hips. No doubt many of them being ranch hands and cowboys that have to protect cattle from bears, wolves, coyotes and bunch more apex predators as part of their job. It's no unusual to see high powered hunting rifles hanging from racks in the back window or pick up trucks, nor is it unusual (at certain times of year) to see a guy on the side of the road pull out a rifle, throw on an orange verst and walk down the side of the road and then step into a break in the woods. There's a very high percentage of military veterans and many military families. At the local weekly farmers market, you'll also see a lot of people open carrying pistols, and the farmers market (here at least) is very much a family oriented event.

    The general attitude I've noted here is that people are hugely independent and pride themselves on that fact. It's very obvious that they don't see the responsibility of their personal safety and that of their family as being anyone else's responsibility. Or rather, it would seem they maintain a position that nobody will be as adept at protecting whats most important to them, than themselves.

    Likewise, living in a valley just outside Glacier National Park, under an hour from the Canadian border, you get some pretty spectacular sunsets. At this time of year, when the sun is dipping below the mountains to the West of me, there's about 15 minutes where it spotlights the peaks of the Northern Rocky ridge line that is equidistant to the East of the valley I live in. Because we are so far North, the sun is never overhead so it naturally produces long light and shadows for most of the day. At this time of year the mountains are all snowcapped so for those 15 minutes just before sunset it lights up the tip of the ridge line as the rest of the mountain and valley are in shadow, creating an illusion that the mountain tops are on fire. With super dense clouds that move pretty fast due to how the wind channels between the ridge line, you get these spectacular sunsets where it almost looks like the entire sky is on fire. Meanwhile, the pasture that makes up most of the valley around me will have herds of deer several hundred deep that are all on the move at dusk, as well as flocks of turkeys making their way across the pasture into the tree line for the night. Honestly, its pretty easy to see how there'd be a far higher percentage of religious people living here when most sunsets look like a scene straight out of some renaissance masterpiece.

    Families here are pretty huge. The part of the valley I'm in has parcels that are 21 acres minimum, with many (if not most), being far larger. Just about every house has a hobby barn or full on barn and probably about half the parcels have a guest house or second house of some sort. Seems many extended family members live on the same property or close by and everyone seems to know everyone else or at least know who their families are. A couple weeks back I hired the cousin of the guy that poured the concrete slab for my chicken coop, to come over and trench out the plumbing from my well to the coop so we don't have to haul water 20o yards from the nearest faucet. Dude accidentally clipped the power line with his backhoe because the guys that came out to survey the area he was digging marked the first phase line and left without realizing the previous owner installed two more electrical phases cause he had a wood shop with a bunch of heavy equipment. When the power company came out, the two guys working here, knew the three guys that got sent out cause they went to high school together. The head guy from the electrical company asked me about one of the neighbors, believing her to be his old home ec teacher (indeed it was) and when that came out, all the rest of the guys either knew her from high school or knew her daughter.

    Going to the local DMV, it seemed like every person that walked in, said hello and chatted with everyone else that was already there and when it was their turn at the window, it was also obvious the person at the DMV knew them personally as well.

    Anyhow, this is a really long and convoluted story, but I wanted to give you detail to help you understand why in a place like this, if some young woman finds herself unexpectedly pregnant, getting an abortion is really an absolute resort if at all an option. Everyone here has huge properties with plenty of room. Families and friends are super extended networks that are very tight knit. And lastly, people here are surrounded by nature with a propensity towards being religious. Coupled with the fact that there is also a deep seated belief in personal responsibility, you can (hopefully) begin to understand how the reality is worlds away from that of someones existence in New York City.

    I'm not saying one reality is wrong or right, only that they are almost incomprehensibly different. I lived in NYC for 15 years and go back often. That said, when I see some TV show or movie that shows the streets of Manhattan, it doesn't even seem real to me anymore. To the people out here, it's even more incomprehensible. When I describe life out here to my friends in NYC, they visualize some old John Wayne western or something. For a kid that was born and bred in the South Bronx, even Manhattan seems like another reality so the shit I live might as well be a movie because its that incomprehensible to them. Again, neither is wrong or right, just vastly different.

    Where this becomes an issue is that now we find ourselves living in age where everyone can communicate with everyone else in real time. Additionally, we've been conditioned into subscribing to a binary dichotomy where its no longer okay to agree to disagree, but rather to take sides with the other side being the opposition. Where it's not even okay to refrain from taking a side without being chastised for it with some "silence equals complicity" type bullshit. Where people are so loyal to whichever side they pick, that they've stopped questioning the issues or scrutinizing the arguments.

    Anyhow, back to the topic... I've come to realize that topics like this will never be settled. It'll be generations, if ever, where cultural differences will coalesce and even then I believe it'll be unlikely. What's changed is that at one time, you only spoke to people around you, that likely shared your reality. With that reality came a set of morals and standards that you could wrap your head around because it reflected your own day to day life. Technology has done away with the geographic barriers and for most intents and purposes, people from out my way relate to New Yorkers about as well as Americans relate to some tribe living out on a desert plain in Africa. The difference is that with Social media (and if you're as cynical as I am, whatever agenda is also at play), you now have everyone conditioned into believing they have the right, if not the obligation, to tell everyone else how they should be living.

    Obviously the issues can get far more complex, but when we as Americans aren't even capable of recognizing that not everyone lives the same reality and that at the end of the day, despite the differences in those realities we all pretty much only want whats best for ourselves and families and that we don't have to reduce everything to a diametric contest, there's no chance of reaching any successful conclusion.

    ----------------

    At the end of the day, gun rights aren't about sport or being able to hunt. It's a preserved freedom, because the people that founded this country believed that to protect ones self, loved ones and property was a fundamental human right if there was to be a truly free society.

    I happen to believe that evil exists. How wide spread that evil is, has a lot to do with the culture it exists within, as well as the environment which either fuels it or chokes it.

    Likewise, I do not trust anyone else to be as motivated to protect me, my family and my property as I am. Considering the United States Supreme Court has upheld the decision that it is not the duty of the police to protect you, but merely to uphold the law (unless you are actively in their custody), it would seem to me that anyone that still trusts the police to do this are simply banking on the law of averages keeping them from being one of the victims in the stats that get reported each year. No doubt that in normal times, the statistics work in your favor. Its sort of the same dynamic as how prey animals herd together because increases the safety of the individual when a predatory suddenly shows up. I happen to prefer to have a tool to equalize the situation when a predator shows up, then resort to hiding within the herd and hoping I'm not the one that gets taken.

    Honestly, I see it as simple as that. All the articles and debate so far haven't taken away from my belief that evil exists and if it shows up at my door step, I hope I have the tool and fortitude to ensure me and mine come out on the winning side of the situation. I welcome anyone, police included to assist), but I'm not going to place my life or the lives of my loved ones in the trust that they'll be around for it or have the fortitude themselves to put our lives ahead of theirs. Seems silly to me that anyone would think otherwise.
     
  12. One Man Banned

    One Man Banned Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Jan 9, 2013 Messages: 11,136 Likes Received: 1,897
    Story kind of sounds like this guy being stopped had more to do with him being monitored as a known extremist and sympathizer of the Islamic State than it had to do with gun laws. To that end, if the U.S. spent more time monitoring known people and their associates and spent less time on shit like mass data collection we'd have less mass shootings/bombing here.
     
  13. Hua Guofang

    Hua Guofang Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Oct 29, 2013 Messages: 1,759 Likes Received: 368
    Raven, apart from the religiosity (which I don’t have a problem with per se) your spot sounds awesome, especially for a mountain bike tragic such as myself.

    I agree with most of what you’ve said, the world is far too complex to allow absolute solutions, which is why I have an issue with ideology - it’s like coming up with a solution without even knowing what the problem is.

    What works in one country may not be right for the other. What works for one city may not work for another but how do you stop the externalities of one cities choices bleeding into a city of other choices (stopping weapons purchased in one state with easy access to arms flowing into neighboring states with differing laws).

    For Australia people don’t feel driven to protect themselves with firearms so much as the threat of gun violence here seems very low given the general lack of guns in society. People, in general seem pretty keen to keep it that way as you can still target/trap/pistol shoot for sport and hunting but you got to jump through a few Hoops to get them and semi autos are heavily restricted as is the carriage of weapons.


    @OMB true but only to a point. It is very unlikely that this guy was being physically surveilled, much more likely that his coms were observed only with maybe one or two human sources reporting.

    If firearms were widely available it’s much more likely that his efforts to obtain a weapon would have been person to person and that his efforts would have been undetected until he started shooting.

    I don’t know what the intricacies are with this case but I do know that the difficulty in obtaining firearms in Australia makes CT much easier to perform and succeed in.
     
  14. One Man Banned

    One Man Banned Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Jan 9, 2013 Messages: 11,136 Likes Received: 1,897
    Seems this thread/debate has died off, but I want to get in front of the next one. According to preliminary reports some douche just set off a pipe bomb on the NYC subway. I'm going to go ahead and throw my support behind a ban on all pipes- metal, pvc, stove, crack, you name it.
     
  15. Fist 666

    Fist 666 Moderator Crew

    Joined: Jun 16, 2007 Messages: 14,096 Likes Received: 971
    A gun has a singular use (firing bullets)

    A pipe has near infinite uses...

    Have to assume sarcasm?
     
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