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Las Vegas Shooting and the Gun Debate

Discussion in 'Channel Zero' started by misteraven, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Brink

    Brink Junior Member

    Joined: Mar 28, 2012 Messages: 192 Likes Received: 58
    I see the point that you're making. However, despite the founding fathers being incredibly visionary in the creation of a government, that does not mean they were 100% right in ever area. Simply because the right to bare arms as a part of a well regulated militia (which the US doesn't have, Switzerland does) is among the first amendments, doesnt mean it is infallible. One of the main arguments I have heard about taking a different approach to government, i.e following the Scandinavian model of democratic socialism, is that it wouldn't work in the US due to the difference in size of our countries, and the fact that many of the Scandinavian countries are largely homogeneous. However, when it comes to examining our own bill of rights under a critical eye, all of a sudden people seem to forget that our collection of colonies was very similar to what the Scandinavians have today. So, in a sense, we are operating on a system that was designed for an entirely different kind of country; yet, these guiding principles are supposedly unbreakable?

    also

    Fun Fact: The US is no longer even considered a democracy, but rather a flawed democracy. Which on the global scale ranks our government with that of Italy based on electoral process and pluralism; civil liberties; the functioning of government; political participation; and political culture.
     
  2. Hua Guofang

    Hua Guofang Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Oct 29, 2013 Messages: 1,668 Likes Received: 334
    1 - this wall of words may be interesting but it doesn't address the point at all that when the BoR and Constitution were formed the technology was completely different than what is fielded today. Maybe I missed something subtle in here but I get the feeling that you may have avoided the point.

    2 -
    Whilst you are right regards the numbers of crimes carried out by 'assault weapons' compared to handguns you seem to be ignoring all of the anti-gun efforts that go into GUN CONTROL. It's not AR-15 control but GUN control that is being sort after. Sure, you get the loudest calls after a major massacre but that doesn't mean you can ignore all of the other work that happens in between, like you have ignored in that post.

    you say that nobody addresses this issue and then talk about how Bloomberg et al have spent tens of millions of dollars trying to address the issue.
    You also seem to have forgotten about the programs and outcry during the Obama era
    You ignore all of the grass roots work that happens on the ground in gang affected areas.

    Are you sure you're being honest in the way you're thinking?

    Dude, you seriously have to step back and rethink things. This shit is CONSTANTLY on the news. There are massive foundations built up around curing cancer, supporting those dying with cancer and supporting families who have some one dying of cancer. The "obesity epidemic" even has a name, people write songs about it and I see it on the news all the time along with 'lose weight fast' stuff being pedaled to folk 24/7. And as for car safety, Ralph Nader made a whole political career based around the issue!!!


    This is why I did not want to get into the gun control issue in the first place because I feel that you are either extraordinarily biased or you are dishonest. I'm not trying to ad hominem you or be a prick, but I don't think it's possible to have a proper discussion on the matter when a lot of what you say is simply untrue (I even cited the laws in some countries that were counter to your claims and even that wasn't enough).

    I find the same with other folk that are on the extreme end of matters, regardless of which way they swing. Nothing can change their minds and accuracy doesn't seem to be important to them. Sorry mate, but just this post alone is an example of how you only seem to see the world in the way that supports your views, rather than what actually occurs.
     
  3. Dirty_habiT

    Dirty_habiT Administrator

    Joined: Mar 8, 2001 Messages: 18,100 Likes Received: 73
    I work in the medical industry and I think it's easy to mistake that every doctor and foundation built is there to help people rather than make money under the guise of helping people. A perfect example as of recent is Shkreli. Sure the guy was making drugs, but then he realized he could just jack the price as much as he wanted until he went into the "this isn't fair" territory. What is considered fair in this regard? How much mark up can you add to medical expenses to justify making people pay that kind of money for their health.

    I have two examples in the recent 5 years that affected me personally. Maybe more than that. I don't go to the doctor unless I feel like I'm dying, which, yes, you can say is a stupid way to think but I also think it's stupid to shell out money because you're scared. If you have a legit condition that requires you to go to the doctor then by all means do it, but until it's confirmed that I have something bad I will keep my money (and yes I have good insurance so it doesn't cost that much but that's not the point).

    Hua - In your opinion, what should be done to "control" guns? What would you do to stop things like the Ghost Gunner (https://ghostgunner.net/) from allowing criminals to possess weapons? If you were our leader for a day how would you put into motion the changes that would bring a positive outlook for gun control? I personally keep a gun right by my bed and it stays in the house right by my bed for when/if it is needed. I would be pretty unhappy with someone suggesting that I shouldn't be allowed to do this. If you mentioned it before, sorry, I'm just not going to read a lot of pages of long explanations. What I'm asking for here is cliff notes/bullet points on how you would make things better for everyone.
     
  4. Dirty_habiT

    Dirty_habiT Administrator

    Joined: Mar 8, 2001 Messages: 18,100 Likes Received: 73
    To take it a step further, even if you could outlaw the sell of all guns, you would have to consider that anyone with some machining/chemistry knowledge/tools would be able to make a weapon that operates just like a gun. This is a "you can't take the jungle out of the monkey" problem IMO. If someone wants to harm others it's a mindset thing, it's not a tool of choice thing. Sure hurting people with guns is easy to do, but so are so many other things. We don't outlaw rat poison because you can use it to harm people right? We don't keep you from buying bleach at the grocery store because it's poisonous? I'm still allowed to sharpen a stick even though it could be used to stab someone. Steal pipes can be used to beat people with, the list goes on and on. I'm going to go ahead and say that you aren't not going to get me to register rocks and sharpened sticks into my name because they can be used for evil.

    I think the high road here is to teach people to not be evil and fix the mental illnesses within our society. How that can be done isn't for me to figure out but I think that's the problem that can be focused on. Even if you tell someone that is a felon or mentally ill that it is not legal for them to possess a weapon, how are you ACTUALLY going to prevent them from getting one. People in jail stab eachother all the time when they're supposed to be in a very controlled environment and have no access to anything that can be used to harm someone. My main point here is that you can use just about anything that is freely available to hurt someone else, how do you fix that problem without addressing the problem of the person having the desire to harm someone?
     
  5. Soup

    Soup Elite Member

    Joined: Jul 24, 2002 Messages: 4,425 Likes Received: 282
    I dont think I've really posted on here in YEARS, but I type "12"into the url bar every fucking day out of muscle memory and hit enter. Found this thread today.

    People have gotten stupid and go straight the supreme court with all their issues. It's a private event. There should've been more security. If you're going to host a giant fucking cash-grab-event with tens of thousands of people, you need a fucking private militia to keep that many people safe. That's what rich people do at their big-ass events. Don't be low hanging fruit at a fucking music festival when america's at a pivotal time of upheaval and nobody values human life, especially not among country-rock-concert goers.

    This isnt evil. This isnt a mental disorder. It's societal. This is a nihlistic old man wanting to go out with the most toys. And the victims of this are a bunch of politically illterate people who've gotten too accustomed to our technocratic overlords creating an artificial sense of security. Get a gun, know your exits, and don't let the fucking herd mentality override your instincts of self preservation.

    BEfore we talk about gun control realize how strange and unusual the scenarios in which mass murders play out: gatherings in which obscene numbers of people cluster together in places the infrastructure wasnt really designed to handle, drawing unwanted eyes and creating bottlenecks for escape routes. From a security standpoint it's a fucking nightmare. Most people don't live in these situations so to think revoking gun control from normal life because these weird scenarios often manifest chaos... it doesnt make sense. It makes more sense to ban enormous, unnaturally large gatherings of people without proper private security precautions.

    NOT ONLY THAT but that's the only policy that's enforceable. Good fucking luck banning guns.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017 at 4:31 AM
    One Man Banned likes this.
  6. Fist 666

    Fist 666 Moderator Crew

    Joined: Jun 16, 2007 Messages: 14,091 Likes Received: 964
    What a couple of weeks to be without internets...

    Welcome back @Soup, hope all is well.

    I don't have time to fully catch up on this thread or to put forth a sound response, but I'm torn as fuck. Have been for a long time. Writing this off as "well, thats how shit is now, better pack or be a sucka" doesn't really work for me. Cough cough Sandy Hook.

    I'll have more time in the next couple weeks to catch up and give this some thought. Anyone near Asheville, NC hit me up for beers.
     
    Soup likes this.
  7. Ko SprueOne

    Ko SprueOne Senior Member

    Joined: May 8, 2004 Messages: 1,606 Likes Received: 85
    I'm skipping the Gun Debate part of this.

    I was in Vegas that same weekend doing some other sht along with going to the Grand Canyon and back. However, I don't even get to tell my vacation story though because as soon as the Vegas part is mentioned all discussion is diverted to the incident.

    FCK You, Vegas shooter(s)!
     
  8. theprotester

    theprotester Moderator Crew

    Joined: Dec 8, 2006 Messages: 10,696 Likes Received: 786
  9. Ko SprueOne

    Ko SprueOne Senior Member

    Joined: May 8, 2004 Messages: 1,606 Likes Received: 85
    Vacation was great and yes, a few flicks that I'm putting together for the day in pies thread later.
     
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