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Is America's education system losing to Asia?


CACashRefund

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Our high schools are obsolete.

 

By obsolete, I don't just mean that they are broken, flawed and underfunded -- although I can't argue with any of those descriptions.

 

What I mean is that they were designed 50 years ago to meet the needs of another age. Today, even when they work exactly as designed, our high schools cannot teach our kids what they need to know.

 

Until we design high schools to meet the needs of the 21st century, we will keep limiting -- even ruining -- the lives of millions of Americans every year. Frankly, I am terrified for our workforce of tomorrow.

 

The idea behind the old high school system was that you could train an adequate workforce by sending only a small fraction of students to college, and that the other kids either couldn't do college work or didn't need to.

 

Sure enough, today only one-third of our students graduate from high school ready for college, work and citizenship.

 

The others, most of whom are low-income and minority students, are tracked into courses that won't ever get them ready for any of those things -- no matter how well the students learn or how hard the teachers work.

 

In district after district across the country, wealthy white kids are taught Algebra II, while low-income minority kids are taught how to balance a checkbook.

 

This is an economic disaster. In the international competition to have the best supply of workers who can communicate clearly, analyze information and solve complex problems, the United States is falling behind. We have one of the highest high school dropout rates in the industrialized world.

 

In math and science, our fourth-graders rank among the top students in the world, but our 12th-graders are near the bottom. China has six times as many college graduates in engineering.

 

As bad as it is for our economy, it's even worse for our students. Today, most jobs that pay enough to support a family require some post-secondary education. Yet only half of all students who enter high school enroll in a post-secondary institution.

 

High school dropouts have it worst of all. Only 40 percent have jobs. They are nearly four times more likely to be arrested than their friends who stayed in high school. And they die young because of years of poor health care, unsafe living conditions and violence.

 

We can put a stop to this. We designed these high schools; we can redesign them.

 

We have to do away with the outdated idea that only some students need to be ready for college and that the others can walk away from higher education and still thrive in our 21st century society. We need a new design that realizes that all students can do rigorous work.

 

There is mounting evidence in favor of this approach. Take the Kansas City, Kan., public school district, where 79 percent of students are minorities and 74 percent live below the poverty line. For years, the district struggled with high dropout rates and low test scores. In 1996, it adopted a school-reform model that, among many other steps, requires all students to take college-prep courses. Since then, the district's graduation rate has climbed more than 30 percentage points.

 

Kansas City is not an isolated example. Exciting work is underway to improve high schools in such cities as Oakland, Chicago and New York.

 

All of these schools are organized around three powerful principles: Ensure that all students are given a challenging curriculum that prepares them for college or work; that their courses clearly relate to their lives and goals; and that they are surrounded by adults who push them to achieve.

 

This kind of change is never easy. But I believe there are three ways that political and business leaders at every level can help build momentum for change in our schools.

 

First, declare that all students must graduate from high school ready for college, work and citizenship. Every politician and chief executive in the country should speak up for the belief that children need to take courses that prepare them for college.

 

Second, publish the data that measure our progress toward that goal. We already have some data that show us the extent of the problem. But we need to know more: What percentage of students are dropping out? What percentage are graduating? And this data must be broken down by race and income.

 

Finally, every state should commit to turning around failing schools and opening new ones. When the students don't learn, the school must change. Every state needs a strong intervention strategy to improve struggling schools.

 

If we keep the system as it is, millions of children will never get a chance to fulfill their promise because of their ZIP code, their skin color or their parents' income. That is offensive to our values.

 

Every kid can graduate ready for college. Every kid should have the chance.

 

Let's redesign our schools to make it happen.

 

After reading this speech ( http://www.alternet.org/story/21399/ ) from Bill Gates, I wonder if it is true that the American educational system is losing out to Asia.

 

Ive had co workers and friends who have gone through the education system in Asia and I suspect he may have a point. Students here in the States seem alot more relaxed than in asia. The kids culture here is also different from Asia. In Asia, kids actually respect the "nerds" who do well in their studies and many of the "nerds" strive hard to excel in both studies and sports too. Yeah the Asian school girls really go for the "nerds" too, they are like celebrities with their own groupies. The students are so competitive in Asia that it is not uncommon for library books to have their pages torn off by students, just so other students cant learn from them.

 

In the US, hollywood portrays that the classic "nerds" are bullied in schools here, so much so that most kids dont want to be a "nerd" by doing well in schools. Could this be why most kids here dont wish to learn about computers and engineering? Because it doesnt portray an image of coolness?

 

For those of you who have been through high school here, what do you all think? Do you agree with Bill Gates on this?

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Originally posted by CACashRefund@May 2 2005, 11:20 PM

Our high schools are obsolete.

 

By obsolete, I don't just mean that they are broken, flawed and underfunded -- although I can't argue with any of those descriptions.

 

What I mean is that they were designed 50 years ago to meet the needs of another age. Today, even when they work exactly as designed, our high schools cannot teach our kids what they need to know.

 

Until we design high schools to meet the needs of the 21st century, we will keep limiting -- even ruining -- the lives of millions of Americans every year. Frankly, I am terrified for our workforce of tomorrow.

 

The idea behind the old high school system was that you could train an adequate workforce by sending only a small fraction of students to college, and that the other kids either couldn't do college work or didn't need to.

 

Sure enough, today only one-third of our students graduate from high school ready for college, work and citizenship.

 

The others, most of whom are low-income and minority students, are tracked into courses that won't ever get them ready for any of those things -- no matter how well the students learn or how hard the teachers work.

 

In district after district across the country, wealthy white kids are taught Algebra II, while low-income minority kids are taught how to balance a checkbook.

 

This is an economic disaster. In the international competition to have the best supply of workers who can communicate clearly, analyze information and solve complex problems, the United States is falling behind. We have one of the highest high school dropout rates in the industrialized world.

 

In math and science, our fourth-graders rank among the top students in the world, but our 12th-graders are near the bottom. China has six times as many college graduates in engineering.

 

As bad as it is for our economy, it's even worse for our students. Today, most jobs that pay enough to support a family require some post-secondary education. Yet only half of all students who enter high school enroll in a post-secondary institution.

 

High school dropouts have it worst of all. Only 40 percent have jobs. They are nearly four times more likely to be arrested than their friends who stayed in high school. And they die young because of years of poor health care, unsafe living conditions and violence.

 

We can put a stop to this. We designed these high schools; we can redesign them.

 

We have to do away with the outdated idea that only some students need to be ready for college and that the others can walk away from higher education and still thrive in our 21st century society. We need a new design that realizes that all students can do rigorous work.

 

There is mounting evidence in favor of this approach. Take the Kansas City, Kan., public school district, where 79 percent of students are minorities and 74 percent live below the poverty line. For years, the district struggled with high dropout rates and low test scores. In 1996, it adopted a school-reform model that, among many other steps, requires all students to take college-prep courses. Since then, the district's graduation rate has climbed more than 30 percentage points.

 

Kansas City is not an isolated example. Exciting work is underway to improve high schools in such cities as Oakland, Chicago and New York.

 

All of these schools are organized around three powerful principles: Ensure that all students are given a challenging curriculum that prepares them for college or work; that their courses clearly relate to their lives and goals; and that they are surrounded by adults who push them to achieve.

 

This kind of change is never easy. But I believe there are three ways that political and business leaders at every level can help build momentum for change in our schools.

 

First, declare that all students must graduate from high school ready for college, work and citizenship. Every politician and chief executive in the country should speak up for the belief that children need to take courses that prepare them for college.

 

Second, publish the data that measure our progress toward that goal. We already have some data that show us the extent of the problem. But we need to know more: What percentage of students are dropping out? What percentage are graduating? And this data must be broken down by race and income.

 

Finally, every state should commit to turning around failing schools and opening new ones. When the students don't learn, the school must change. Every state needs a strong intervention strategy to improve struggling schools.

 

If we keep the system as it is, millions of children will never get a chance to fulfill their promise because of their ZIP code, their skin color or their parents' income. That is offensive to our values.

 

Every kid can graduate ready for college. Every kid should have the chance.

 

Let's redesign our schools to make it happen.

 

After reading this speech ( http://www.alternet.org/story/21399/ ) from Bill Gates, I wonder if it is true that the American educational system is losing out to Asia.

 

Ive had co workers and friends who have gone through the education system in Asia and I suspect he may have a point. Students here in the States seem alot more relaxed than in asia. The kids culture here is also different from Asia. In Asia, kids actually respect the "nerds" who do well in their studies and many of the "nerds" strive hard to excel in both studies and sports too. Yeah the Asian school girls really go for the "nerds" too, they are like celebrities with their own groupies. The students are so competitive in Asia that it is not uncommon for library books to have their pages torn off by students, just so other students cant learn from them.

 

In the US, hollywood portrays that the classic "nerds" are bullied in schools here, so much so that most kids dont want to be a "nerd" by doing well in schools. Could this be why most kids here dont wish to learn about computers and engineering? Because it doesnt portray an image of coolness?

 

For those of you who have been through high school here, what do you all think? Do you agree with Bill Gates on this?

 

"In math and science, our fourth graders rank among the top students in the world, but our 12th graders are near the bottom. China has six times as many college graduates in engineering."

 

As for China with 6 times as many engineers, that's its hard luck. Who wants to live in a world of engineers? And, a Chinese scholar on the BBC yesterday pointed out that China has 4 times as many people, but only ll% of the GDP as the US, meaning each Chinese produces between 3 and 4 percent what an American does. This is our competitor???

 

Gates and the others always talk about the equity aspect of this and that is a serious problem. But they absolutely refuse to deal with the distribution of goods aspect: why are the captains of industry generating so many jobs that won't support a family? Five of the top 8 richest people in the country are Waltons. But what do they pay their people at Walmart (when they're not locking them in overnight)?

 

If everyone qualifies for a family-supporting job, that will just drive the wages down for those jobs. Supply and demand is operative so far as I know. Bureau of Labor Statistics stats show that most jobs (not most family supporting jobs) don't require anything much: Retail sales accounts for more jobs than the 10 fastest growing jobs combined. Janitors, fast food workers and low level construction workers and other service industry jobs are the other huge categories. Why not pay these people a living, not a minimum wage (which, by the way, hasn't gone up in 8 years)? And if everyone can qualify for a family supporting job A) who will do these jobs and B) won't employers use capricious criteria in hiring?

 

I don't think Gates is seeing Potemkin schools, but I also don't think he's thinking critically about them. There's too much garbage in his speech--he's bought the BRT propaganda line hook, line and sinker.

 

He says we need to reform schools to keep our competitiveness. I say "Prove it." "A Nation At Risk" said precisely the same thing: "In order to keep and improve on the slim competitive edge we still retain in world markets, we must dedicate outselves to the reform of our educational system."

 

Back in the late 40's, we didn't have to worry about competition because most of the world was The Third World and the rest was the devastated world. World War II, you recall. So the problem with the schools was they weren't generating enough scientists, engineers and mathematicians to compete, not for markets, but to compete with the Russians in the space and weapon races. So said CIA chief Allen Dulles to Admiral Hy Rickover. Hope CIA intelligence was better then than now.

 

As I more than implied in "Education's Ground Hog Day (Ed Week, Feb 2), anyone making the economic competition argument has to show some direct evidence. I think it's just a scare technique. Make people afraid of the future and you can control them. Wolf, wolf, wolf. It is, as philosopher Harry Frankfurt says in his little tome, "bullshit." (On Bullshit, Princeton University Press, 2005).

 

-Gerald Bracey

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Originally posted by CACashRefund@May 2 2005, 11:20 PM

After reading this speech ( http://www.alternet.org/story/21399/ ) from Bill Gates, I wonder if it is true that the American educational system is losing out to Asia.

 

Ive had co workers and friends who have gone through the education system in Asia and I suspect he may have a point. Students here in the States seem alot more relaxed than in asia. The kids culture here is also different from Asia. In Asia, kids actually respect the "nerds" who do well in their studies and many of the "nerds" strive hard to excel in both studies and sports too. Yeah the Asian school girls really go for the "nerds" too, they are like celebrities with their own groupies. The students are so competitive in Asia that it is not uncommon for library books to have their pages torn off by students, just so other students cant learn from them.

 

In the US, hollywood portrays that the classic "nerds" are bullied in schools here, so much so that most kids dont want to be a "nerd" by doing well in schools. Could this be why most kids here dont wish to learn about computers and engineering? Because it doesnt portray an image of coolness?

 

For those of you who have been through high school here, what do you all think? Do you agree with Bill Gates on this?

 

First, establish the difference between an effective educational system, and a difference in culture; which point are you trying to argue? Yes, the cultures are vastly different.

 

Our educational system is one of the top in world. We often find ourselves being compared to other countries (Germany, Japan, Switzerland, etc.) and being portrayed as dismal. The primary reason for this is the large distribution in the United States of ethnicities. Think about how diverse our population is. Then look at the demographics of the countries we are being compared against. Their teachers don't struggle with ESL learner's as we do here. Those countries flounder when it comes to Special Education.

 

We have a great education system, especially for the price. We do however live in a capitalistic society. There will always be people that are struggling to get by. Bill Gates, while being fantastically rich, needs to delve further into the Educational research before he rants. Bleh.

 

-Fugazi

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...bull shit...our education is not the best in the world, not even close...at least not our public education...private education, post secondary, maybe...one of the biggest problems with public education is that fact that most of the funds come from local property taxes...which means that rich schools get way more funding than inner city schools...the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...our public schools educators are under paid, while millions of dollars are pumped into the security of these schools with off-duty police and security systems, all of which are wastes of money...

...it is true that constuction workers and tradesmen still make pretty good money, and their jobs are secure as they ever have been...but what Mr. gates is argueing is that unless we boost the level of education that the relatively well educated recieve, there will be no jobs for them...

...there was a very good editorial on this subject by Thomas Friedman in the New York Times last friday...

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Originally posted by porque@May 3 2005, 04:00 AM

...bull shit...our education is not the best in the world, not even close...at least not our public education...private education, post secondary, maybe...one of the biggest problems with public education is that fact that most of the funds come from local property taxes...which means that rich schools get way more funding than inner city schools...the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...our public schools educators are under paid, while millions of dollars are pumped into the security of these schools with off-duty police and security systems, all of which are wastes of money...

...it is true that constuction workers and tradesmen still make pretty good money, and their jobs are secure as they ever have been...but what Mr. gates is argueing is that unless we boost the level of education that the relatively well educated recieve, there will be no jobs for them...

...there was a very good editorial on this subject by Thomas Friedman in the New York Times last friday...

 

I challenge you to produce data regarding the negative state of our educational system; data which through analysis of statistics is not intentionally misleading, and has been published in an accredited peer-reviewed journal. Until then, what you say is considered opinion rather than fact; I've seen the data myself regarding our children's educational performance.

 

Thank you, and goodnight-

 

Fugazi

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Somebody post the highschool suicide rate in Asian countries verses here. Alot of their kids kill themselves for failing in school cause the shit's too much for them. Our kids don't need that kind of pressure. I don't think American kids will necesarily start jumping off buidings if we make the shit harder, but rather the drop-out rate will skyrocket.

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Originally posted by metallix@May 3 2005, 05:47 PM

accredited peer-reviewed journal. as if those do not have their own biases? ha ha..

 

im not even going to get started...go read some of the arguments of home schooling.

 

1. My point was that their methods and statistics have been evaluated, vs. the "hear-say" that the earlier poster was dealing with (i.e. I hear the education system in the United States is awful).

 

2. This isn't an issue of homeschooling vs. group instruction. It's an evaluation of our educational system. Go read some of the arguments against homeschooling (the socialization issues are a major drawback).

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Originally posted by SF1@May 3 2005, 06:37 PM

Somebody post the highschool suicide rate in Asian countries verses here. Alot of their kids kill themselves for failing in school cause the shit's too much for them. Our kids don't need that kind of pressure. I don't think American kids will necesarily start jumping off buidings if we make the shit harder, but rather the drop-out rate will skyrocket.

 

 

Good points. And has anyone here actually been to Japan? Do you know what their educational system is like? Their highschool is equivalent to our college in terms of competition. That's why the figures are inaccurate; of course our fourth graders are on par with the world, or better than. Our 12th graders, when being compared to the top 10% of a nation's students, might not look that great though. I've seen the literature, it's almost mind-boggling how they twist statistics sometimes. Eek. :yuck:

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Originally posted by Fugazi+May 3 2005, 07:23 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fugazi - May 3 2005, 07:23 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-metallix@May 3 2005, 05:47 PM

accredited peer-reviewed journal. as if those do not have their own biases? ha ha..

 

im not even going to get started...go read some of the arguments of home schooling.

 

1. My point was that their methods and statistics have been evaluated, vs. the "hear-say" that the earlier poster was dealing with (i.e. I hear the education system in the United States is awful).

 

2. This isn't an issue of homeschooling vs. group instruction. It's an evaluation of our educational system. Go read some of the arguments against homeschooling (the socialization issues are a major drawback).

[/b]

 

 

6 entries found for SOCIALIZATION.

so·cial·ize Audio pronunciation of "SOCIALIZATION" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ssh-lz)

v. so·cial·ized, so·cial·iz·ing, so·cial·iz·es

v. tr.

 

1. To place under government or group ownership or control.

2. To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable.

3. To convert or adapt to the needs of society.

 

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=SOCIALIZATION

 

NO THANKS.

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Originally posted by metallix+May 4 2005, 02:03 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (metallix - May 4 2005, 02:03 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Fugazi@May 3 2005, 07:23 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-metallix@May 3 2005, 05:47 PM

accredited peer-reviewed journal. as if those do not have their own biases? ha ha..

 

im not even going to get started...go read some of the arguments of home schooling.

 

1. My point was that their methods and statistics have been evaluated, vs. the "hear-say" that the earlier poster was dealing with (i.e. I hear the education system in the United States is awful).

 

2. This isn't an issue of homeschooling vs. group instruction. It's an evaluation of our educational system. Go read some of the arguments against homeschooling (the socialization issues are a major drawback).

 

 

6 entries found for SOCIALIZATION.

so·cial·ize Audio pronunciation of "SOCIALIZATION" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ssh-lz)

v. so·cial·ized, so·cial·iz·ing, so·cial·iz·es

v. tr.

 

1. To place under government or group ownership or control.

2. To make fit for companionship with others; make sociable.

3. To convert or adapt to the needs of society.

 

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=SOCIALIZATION

 

NO THANKS.

[/b]

 

I was using it in the context of social interactions with others; i.e. knowing how to interact with other people. Many homeschooled kids don't have the opportunity to develop the social skills that are learned during the school-aged years, and it can detrimentally effect them later in life.

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I work as a teacher in Japan so this is an interesting topic to me. first off i`m all for reforming our US system. there is always room for change. in particular i think vocational schools, homeschooling, or anything else that allows the student to get hands on experience rather than just textbook nonsense is better than what we presently have. not to mention the difference between city schools and suburban, aka minority vs white schools.

 

in terms of comparing US students vs asian students what are are we comparing them by? test scores, students that continue to college, who takes education more seriously, etc?

 

kids in japan go to school 6 days a week from juniour high. they go almost all year round and during their breif vacations they are required to do homework and come and participate in afterschool activities. after school, after sports or piano, they then go to english conversation schools and juku (cram) schools. they are so overworked that they can barely keep awake let alone learn english. anything that is tested is basically consited of dates, whos who, factual info. the amount of crap crammed into the test is enormous. after the test everything is forgotten and replaced with next weeks exams. so they arent really learning the info they are regurgetating it. ask them an opinion question with no right answer all they have to do is give reasons to back them up and they fail soooooo miserably. simply because they cant answer why to anything. their teachers dictate/lecture they dont discuss. if a student asks a question he is ridiculed. no asks a question in japan ever even if the whole class doesnt understand for fear of looking stupid.

 

yes its true that asian elementary 1st graders are learning multiplication, and the highschool students are studing college level texts but they have no thinking skills. the biggest gift of american education is common sense. we take it for granted so much as if duh everyone has it thats why its called common sense. but asian schools do not teach common sense or cognitive learning. i remember in 5th grade there was a common sense test. a test besides all that stanford crap. a question i remember was theres a man, he works at a hospital, he went to university for 10 years, he earns a lot of money, he has a stethascope, he works long hours, whats his job? i immediately yelled out oh i wonder what the hell could his job be?? he`s a doctor duhhh. but japanese students would answer i dont know you didnt tell me what his job was. they cant put 2 and 2 together. universities in japan are really difficult to get into because of their entrance exams, once they pass, as long as tuition is paid they graduate. regardless if they come or not.

 

japanese parents that want their kids to get a descent education at best must pay high prices starting from preschool. in order to get into the ivy league kindergarten, then elementary school etc. they pay more for basic k-12th grade education than we do on university. because of the high level of competition kids are bullied nonstop from other kids. especially the nerds that are extorted for their money in front of teachers and no one bats an eye. their culture is based on group society and anyone not fitting in gets picked on. the teachers pick on the students constantly. my japanese writer friend dropped out of jr high the first month because the teacher told him contantly to quit school because he was of a lower cast. dont think that india is the only one, japan still has it but covers it up really well. japanese companies dont hire lower cast members so going to highschool would have been futile for my friend.

 

dont even get me started about textbook content. japanese history books gloss over atrocities during ww2, they portray themselves the victim of the atom bomb but never mention why the hell it was dropped on them. the chinese books portray the japanese as devils but fail to mention all the aid and numerous apoligies given by the japanese. i talked with chinese students studying in japan and they never even heard about tianemmen square massacre or mao`s famine.

 

so my point is school sucks no matter where you live. and test scores wont prove shit, let alone when you compare apples and oranges. but at the end of the day i have common sense, and if i fail i pick myself back up and start again. if theres something i didnt learn in school but want to learn i know how to get that info. i ask why constantly. japanese students cant think, give opinion, answer why, and when they fail they jump off a building or on to an oncoming express train. i now appreciate the crappy FREE public education i got from the city of chicago.

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Originally posted by serum@May 4 2005, 12:38 PM

dont even get me started about textbook content. japanese history books gloss over atrocities during ww2, they portray themselves the victim of the atom bomb but never mention why the hell it was dropped on them. the chinese books portray the japanese as devils but fail to mention all the aid and numerous apoligies given by the japanese. i talked with chinese students studying in japan and they never even heard about tianemmen square massacre or mao`s famine.

 

I think this is true of most Countrys' textbooks... everything is slightly biased.

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I've spoken to many peope in public schools and discussed many things. It apparently seems many individuals have some latent psychological issues to deal with due to public schooling. They are centers of psychological indoctrination.

 

Our school system is guilty of cooking the history books as well...just different events and people...

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Originally posted by metallix@May 4 2005, 03:53 PM

I've spoken to many peope in public schools and discussed many things. It apparently seems many individuals have some latent psychological issues to deal with due to public schooling. They are centers of psychological indoctrination.

 

Our school system is guilty of cooking the history books as well...just different events and people...

 

You're blaming schools for the psychological issues that people have? I would have given you half a point for blaming the parents... blaming the school gets you zero points though. There will never be an answer to the nature vs. nurture question. And talking "to many peope in public schools and discussed many things." just doesn't convince me of much. ;)

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You can blame the school atmosphere more than the parents for how a kid turns out. Kids are brought up more in the school environment than they are at home, even after the school days over they still have to deal with the same kids out on the street.

 

That being said... if you were one of the kids that got tortured and beat up all the time and you didn't eventually let it toughen you up and overcome it, if you're still whining about how tromatized you are years later then you're a pussy. You woulda been picked on growing up even if school didn't exist. And if it didn't make you stronger then you still woulda grown up to be a pussy anyway. That's just nature.

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It is impossible to make the educational experience equal for every student, but by and large the issue is the students themselves and the culture in which they live. One of the biggest problems we face in the U.S. is dealing with a youth culture that is so entitled that our children have lost the basic understanding of the necessity of striving for success. Mom and Dad either micromanage every detail of the kid's life, trying to guarantee success, or they are completely uninvolved and spend their time intoxicated or otherwise unavailable.

 

The basic assets required to become educated exist in every school in the U.S., but when the thugs are cool, rather than the higher-performing students, don't bring that crap about "it's the schools' fault" and "society is racist blah blah blah." It's an excuse and a poor one at that.

 

NOBODY is responsible for your life and your success or lack thereof but YOU. Every American city of any size has a public library system. If you think your school isn't doing the job, you'd best get your ass to the library. There is nothing stopping American students from studying on their own except their own LAZINESS. Less time on the basketball court or vegging out in from of some mind-numbing video game bullshit and more time LEARNING SOMETHING WORTHWHILE.

 

And please, get over that "I'm going to be a millionaire DJ" or "I'm going to play for the NBA." You aren't, so better start preparing for the real world. And if you fail to become educated, you know in your heart with whom the fault actually rests.

 

YOU ALONE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR LIFE. Don't pussy out and try to blame anybody else.

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also esl. somone mentioned it earlier. we need appreciate that this exists at all. my friends son is a 5th grader and he came to japan speaking no japanese. my friend put him inot the regular japanese public schools and they set up a tutor for him but gave up on him when the korean and chinese kids picked up the language quicker than he could. they said its impossible for an american child to learn their language and that was it no more tutoring. my friend was forced to hire a private tutor in order for him to keep up at school not to mention extra help from his japanese wife. japan is becoming more international and they still havent set up an esl class or any program dealing with the rising international population. a brazilian boy came to school and they gave him to me and said you are both foreignors so you can get along. true our faces are similar but yo i cant speak portuguese.

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metallix is on point with his assertion that the school system

is a centre of indoctrination..this shouldn't be a point of contention

considering the mammoth efforts by the privileged class to create an

unthinking, apathetic working class through a whole slew of mechanisms.

whether you can argue that the indoctrination occuring within the school

system is good, bad, or 'traumatizing', i don't know.

consider it a puzzle piece in the larger indoctrinal system and there's alot of connections from which you can draw your own conclusions.

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having been homeschooled for most of elementary i can't say that it helped me develop interpersonal relationship skills, or to carry on a casual conversation with a stranger. however, after half of first grade in public school, i was going nowhere fast socially and to a lesser extent academically. entering the sixth grade i was socially unprepared, but i did fine with the schoolwork.

 

"The basic assets required to become educated exist in every school in the U.S."

 

this is true, but only for some.

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Originally posted by POIESIS@May 5 2005, 01:25 AM

metallix is on point with his assertion that the school system

is a centre of indoctrination..this shouldn't be a point of contention

considering the mammoth efforts by the privileged class to create an

unthinking, apathetic working class through a whole slew of mechanisms.

whether you can argue that the indoctrination occuring within the school

system is good, bad, or 'traumatizing', i don't know.

consider it a puzzle piece in the larger indoctrinal system and there's alot of connections from which you can draw your own conclusions.

 

 

This argument gets sooooo tired after a while. Blah blah blah our schools are machines, creating unthinking factory workers. Let me guess, the only way to be 'free thinking' is to not go to college, or even better, to drop out of highschool? It's starting to seem like 'free thinking' might be synonymous with 'uneducated'. There's nothing that tickles me pink like hearing a highschool drop out speak on issues that they obviously have no idea about, but feel very strongly about; especially when it's a topic they would have learned about getting a general education :)

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Originally posted by KaBar2@May 4 2005, 01:36 PM

It is impossible to make the educational experience equal for every student, but by and large the issue is the students themselves and the culture in which they live. One of the biggest problems we face in the U.S. is dealing with a youth culture that is so entitled that our children have lost the basic understanding of the necessity of striving for success. Mom and Dad either micromanage every detail of the kid's life, trying to guarantee success, or they are completely uninvolved and spend their time intoxicated or otherwise unavailable.

 

The basic assets required to become educated exist in every school in the U.S., but when the thugs are cool, rather than the higher-performing students, don't bring that crap about "it's the schools' fault" and "society is racist blah blah blah." It's an excuse and a poor one at that.

 

NOBODY is responsible for your life and your success or lack thereof but YOU. Every American city of any size has a public library system. If you think your school isn't doing the job, you'd best get your ass to the library. There is nothing stopping American students from studying on their own except their own LAZINESS. Less time on the basketball court or vegging out in from of some mind-numbing video game bullshit and more time LEARNING SOMETHING WORTHWHILE.

 

And please, get over that "I'm going to be a millionaire DJ" or "I'm going to play for the NBA." You aren't, so better start preparing for the real world. And if you fail to become educated, you know in your heart with whom the fault actually rests.

 

YOU ALONE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR LIFE. Don't pussy out and try to blame anybody else.

 

 

Yo Kabar

..while I agree with you that, in the end, every individual is responsible for his/herself; I still believe that one of the main purposes of our educational system is to prepare the individual to take on that responsibilty. Too many times in high school I had to sit through 45 minutes or so of unorganized, irrelevant and generally distraction riddled classroom enviroments. Classrooms where the teachers and students alike were ill-equipped to present, teach or take in information that would likely be useful to them later in life.

 

Shit, I learned more about adapting to the "real world" from the apathy and disinterest presented by the staff and students in HS than I did in some of my classes. Most of my "social interaction skills" and just knowledge on the world in general was learned at school, not at home, and no, not because my mother was too "intoxicated" to be invovled. But because we were living on section 8 housing with my moms working 2 jobs to keep our heads above water and the heat on. This coupled with the fact that a lot of my teachers were too overworked, underequipped, and just plain to stressed, with overcrowded classes and inferior resourses and materials, to even begin to take the extra mile to actually "teach" anything of value.

Its not like I believe the teachers were to blame entirely for this situtation, I think alot of the attitudes and methods they possessed and used were just symptoms of a greater problem.

 

But basically this was the reality not only for me (nod to mamerro) but also for a bunch of other brown (and white) faced, poor as fuck boys and girls growing up around my way, caught up in a vicious cycle that left them totally unprepared for and unaware of the "real world" . Its a terrible thing when opprotunity knocks and you don't answer that door but its FUCKED UP when no one takes the time to show a KID that the door even exists in the first place.

 

I'm not saying that the reality you spoke of "entitled youth..." who have "lost the basic understanding of the nessicity of striving for success" doesn't exist. I'm just saying theres another side homie, past the entitlement and laziness, cuz I ain't never asked nobody for shit, but for the things i've been given i'm eternally grateful and if it wasn't for those few who actually gave a damn or where in the position to give a damn (cuz so many aren't) I dont' know where I would be now. So before you pass judgement on the youth, think about the cards they were dealt and that you can play out that hand in any number of ways but you gotta be taught the game first. And yo, this was in no way trying to discredit or belittle your opinion, I believe it's a valid one, but just to shed light on another prespective that should not be disregarded.

 

aiight i'm done...

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Originally posted by Fugazi@May 5 2005, 11:06 AM

This argument gets sooooo tired after a while.  Blah blah blah our schools are machines, creating unthinking factory workers.  Let me guess, the only way to be 'free thinking' is to not go to college, or even better, to drop out of highschool?  It's starting to seem like 'free thinking' might be synonymous with 'uneducated'.  There's nothing that tickles me pink like hearing a highschool drop out speak on issues that they obviously have no idea about, but feel very strongly about; especially when it's a topic they would have learned about getting a general education :)

 

i don't see what's tiring about a completely elementary grasp of reality.

i get the impression you feel this is a completely ridiculous postulation..

your entitled to your opinion, but i find it baffling anyone with half a brain can't grasp it.

indoctrination is a purely fundamental part of the system..just becuz

somebody asserts this doesn't mean that that they are inherently against

schools, or the merit of what schools offer or any other bullshit you'd

like to extrapolate from it.

it means what it means. nothing more, nothing less, and if you take a look at

the school system within the larger indoctrinal system, then you'll probably come to your

own conclusions where one could assert pro's and con's.

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Originally posted by POIESIS+May 6 2005, 02:52 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (POIESIS - May 6 2005, 02:52 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Fugazi@May 5 2005, 11:06 AM

This argument gets sooooo tired after a while.  Blah blah blah our schools are machines, creating unthinking factory workers.  Let me guess, the only way to be 'free thinking' is to not go to college, or even better, to drop out of highschool?  It's starting to seem like 'free thinking' might be synonymous with 'uneducated'.  There's nothing that tickles me pink like hearing a highschool drop out speak on issues that they obviously have no idea about, but feel very strongly about; especially when it's a topic they would have learned about getting a general education :)

 

i don't see what's tiring about a completely elementary grasp of reality.

i get the impression you feel this is a completely ridiculous postulation..

your entitled to your opinion, but i find it baffling anyone with half a brain can't grasp it.

indoctrination is a purely fundamental part of the system..just becuz

somebody asserts this doesn't mean that that they are inherently against

schools, or the merit of what schools offer or any other bullshit you'd

like to extrapolate from it.

it means what it means. nothing more, nothing less, and if you take a look at

the school system within the larger indoctrinal system, then you'll probably come to your

own conclusions where one could assert pro's and con's.

[/b]

 

It's tiring because it is completely elementary; basic and simple. It's my position that many of the greatest thinkers in the world have completed their education. Yet to many it translates to being part of "the system". It translates to being intelligent. You can be street smart too; but first, learn your grammar, mathematics, science, etc...

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Guest imported_El Mamerro

I don't think you're really understanding what POIESIS is saying, Fugazi.

 

Originally posted by POIESIS@May 5 2005, 09:52 PM

indoctrination is a purely fundamental part of the system..just becuz

somebody asserts this doesn't mean that that they are inherently against

schools, or the merit of what schools offer or any other bullshit you'd

like to extrapolate from it.

 

 

 

There's absolutely no question that the school system IS an institution of indoctrination. As a matter of fact, I can't even fathom ANY school system being anything other than that, and would consider any government that doesn't construct its school system in that fashion unprepared to build and lead a country.

 

It is the school system's job to teach and ingrain the skills, behaviors, manner of thinking, and methodologies needed to keep the society running in the framework and infrastucture that has been built for it to advance. Now, it's up to you whether you want to consider this framework to be an evil, well-oiled machine run by mindless cogs, or simply the best way so far the country has found to keep itself stable and hopefully improving (or somewhere in between, as I do in my ever-so-moderate stance on things). It is imperative for a government to establish such a training system, or risk collapse. This is, of course, an ideal concept... our current public school system doesn't necessarilly even fulfill its purpose of indoctrination (aka: may not teach you what to need to be an efficient "cog") very well.

 

Now, it is my opinion that if you have enough brain to understand that the school system is an institution of indoctrination, you have enough brain to deduce how to work outside that indoctrination. Now, if you decide to leave school cause you don't want to be part of what it modifies you for, you run the risk of failing at finding a viable alternative when you go out to fend for yourself. Stay in, do your best, and at least you'll learn what you need to succeed within the system in case all else fails.

 

In the case of my personal experience at school, I had a curriculum that taught me the standard things needed to train me into the system. Interpersonal relationships with teachers and friends taught me how to think outside it. The decision is up to you.

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