1. Welcome to the 12ozProphet Forum...
    You are currently logged out and viewing our forum as a guest which only allows limited access to our discussions, photos and other forum features. If you are a 12ozProphet Member please login to get the full experience.

    If you are not a 12ozProphet Member, please take a moment to register to gain full access to our website and all of its features. As a 12ozProphet Member you will be able to post comments, start discussions, communicate privately with other members and access members-only content. Registration is fast, simple and free, so join today and be a part of the largest and longest running Graffiti, Art, Style & Culture forum online.

    Please note, if you are a 12ozProphet Member and are locked out of your account, you can recover your account using the 'lost password' link in the login form. If you no longer have access to the email you registered with, please email us at info@12ozprophet.com and we'll help you recover your account. Welcome to the 12ozProphet Forum (and don't forget to follow @12ozprophet in Instagram)!

golden west changing to SSW? red UPFE's?

Discussion in 'Metal Heads' started by killtoy, Oct 12, 2002.

  1. killtoy

    killtoy Guest

    golden west changing to SSW? red UPFE's?

    Discussion started by killtoy - Oct 12, 2002

    does anybody know anything about why alot of golden west boxcars are being remarked SSW? (formerly GVSR) they're not painting over the golden west logo but i have seen a couple that had pieces that got buffed at the same time the SSW was painted on.
    another thing i've been noticing is that alot of old UPFE's are getting painted over dark burgundy/brownish red and they're being remarked. som just get marked UP, others are MP or something with a W in it. i can't remember.
    can somebody please explain this to me? :confused:
     
  2. dukeofyork

    dukeofyork 12oz Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Messages:
    1,589

    dukeofyork - Replied Oct 12, 2002

    its probably just as well.....



    of all the refridgerator cars ive done, ive only liked one of them.
    and it was a white bnfe.



    i dont get enough reefridgerator cars. :(
     
    dukeofyork - Rank: 12oz Senior Member - Messages:
    1,589
    - Joined:
    Nov 9, 2000
  3. Cracked Ass

    Cracked Ass 12oz Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    7,898

    Cracked Ass - Replied Oct 12, 2002

    I had a feeling this was coming...your news is actually good news.
    Here's the deal:
    Golden West Service was never really a rail company. Southern Pacific was in financial difficulty some years back, so some accountants got together and created GWS as a futile attempt to save SP some money. I don't know how the financial end works, but this "front" company bought some of SP's cars, painted them up as Golden West, and leased them back to SP. (Like I said, I have no idea why or how this would save anybody money, but whatever.) The Golden Wests needed reporting marks. Again, I don't know why, but they leased reporting marks from Galveston Railroad (GVSR), Ventura County Railroad (VCY), and Coe Rail (CRLE).
    I don't know why this was all necessary, but the lease on those three reporting marks is up in 2002/2003, so all Golden Wests need new marks. (And this is all long after SP got absorbed by Union Pacific anyway.) So my fear was that all Golden Wests were going to get repainted or sold, and a lot of historic work would be lost (just like the recent Solid Cold repaint). If you're seeing Golden Wests merely restamped SSW, then that's good news because it beats a full repaint.
    Just to be clear one more time: I have no fucking idea why REPORTING MARKS needed to be leased from anybody, or why they couldn't have just written GWS on all their cars (for Golden West Service) from day 1. My source is foggy on this and I am looking into it.
    I had not heard of the other reefer issue, I'll have to look into that as well.
     
    Cracked Ass - Rank: 12oz Veteran Member - Messages:
    7,898
    - Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
  4. Cracked Ass

    Cracked Ass 12oz Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    7,898

    Cracked Ass - Replied Oct 12, 2002

    Oops...I just noticed you said that some of them got buffed as part of the restamp process...that's not the best news. Is the buff just a scrub, or is it fresh paint? What percentage got the full buff as opposed to just the SSW restamp? Are these cars ridgies, flats, ballast hoppers, or a mix of types?
    I would be very interested in flicks of one of the restamped cars, particularly a detail shot of the new reporting marks. If anybody can come up with one for the Metal Heads bench let me know.
     
    Cracked Ass - Rank: 12oz Veteran Member - Messages:
    7,898
    - Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
  5. sm021

    sm021 12oz Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2001
    Messages:
    321

    sm021 - Replied Oct 12, 2002

    i recently have noticed this as well.... the red up's are ridges and the whole car is red.. The keep the union pacific logo on the car still... also the gvsr car some are just re stamped..I caught one couple of weeks ago with big5 and apart from 98'...

    :eek:
     
    sm021 - Rank: 12oz Member - Messages:
    321
    - Joined:
    Jan 7, 2001
  6. Ski Mask

    Ski Mask 12oz Loyalist

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2000
    Messages:
    11,114

    Ski Mask - Replied Oct 12, 2002

    two parts to my reply:
    1. Golden Wests -

    As was stated earlier (sort of), Golden West Service was a project by Greenbrier and SP to rebuild old SP cars (including its new aquisitions, DRGW and SSW) and bring them up to pace with service demands, as well as polish its image a little with shippers and the public. Greenbrier would rebuild the cars and lease them back to SP to cover the expenses.

    As this was being put together (93) the ICC (now the surface transportation board) was in the process of "deprescription" of car hire rates. Car Hire rates are the established rates that a shipper pays to the owner of the car. "Deprescription" involved changing the way those rates were established, from the previous set formula, to a more market oriented price system that fluctuated. Shortline railroads were given a 10 year "grace period" from these changes, during which they would still use the old formula for car hire rates.

    In order to "protect" these new cars from the deprescription, SP entered into an agreement with a few shortlines (GVSR, VCY, CRLE) where they would pay them a small amount of money on a regular basis to use the shortline's reporting marks to register these cars. This is where the whole " legal shell game" thing comes into play. Lots of paper work and leasing agreements so SP can save a bunch of cash.

    Now jump to the present day. ten years from 93 brings us to 03, and as the exemption comes to a close, Union Pacific (who bought SP years ago) has decided that it's going to renumber the cars back to their original numbers so it can stop paying the shortlines for the use of their reporting marks. Its not saving money by being exempt anymore, so why should it? I've seen some VCY's showing up here with fresh stamp cubes and SP reporting marks lately. They dont even seem to be buffing anything else (ie Load Limits), just the minimum required to keep them on the road and legal.

    So in summary....nothing is changing but the numbers. some pannels may eat it if they decide to re-stamp loads cause they were completely covered...but that happens anyways. Hope that clears everything up....

    2- reefers.
    UPFE's and most big reefer groups are involved in rebuild/repaint programs right now. Seems to be a rash of them as railroads are slowly working on snagging back some fast freight perishible business from the truckers. the solid colds have been discussed on here before. Not much to say, but anything old on a reefer probably has its days numbered....check out the last few issues of trains (they had a special at the begining of the year on a reefer service that shipped carrots to break down how things work, and whats happening in that area.) for the details.
     
    Ski Mask - Rank: 12oz Loyalist - Messages:
    11,114
    - Joined:
    Apr 11, 2000
  7. killtoy

    killtoy Guest

    killtoy - Replied Oct 12, 2002

    cracked ass, ese, etc...

    the golden wests i saw stamped SSW were flat and ridged boxcars. haven't seen no hoppers. one of them looked like the panels had been painted over at the same time the SSW was stamped on. there were a few toy tags on the stamped area. me and someone else did the flat one end to end, but i don't know if it'll run...
    and i been seeng alot of these redish UP's that used to be upfe's. i know they were upfe's, because my tags from when they were upfe's have bled through on alot of them. i've done a few of them and i seen certain people from arizona up on them with fills. they also have painted dates. i justsaw some today with the date 9-02 as when it was repainted! fucked huh? i guess i should concentrate on those for a sec... what do you think... newly painted cars run longer? i wonder if they ru on the same routes as before? :confused:
     
  8. killtoy

    killtoy Guest

    killtoy - Replied Oct 13, 2002

    dude! cracked ass...

    why are some of the upfe's that get repainted red, getting marked with a MP? i think i seen em with a WP also?
     
  9. TrustEvil

    TrustEvil Guest

    TrustEvil - Replied Oct 13, 2002

    ...no one mentioned the fact that as consolidation continues amongst the major RR co's. more cars are being re-stamped, re-painted, or simply scrapped as new car orders come in. A lot of companies are switching over to the "tall-boy" boxcars simply because they cover the same ground, but can carry 20% more cargo. As for the GVSR's and UP reefers getting repainted, well, that is taking places in stages. Very similar to the acquisition of hundreds of old CP newsprint boxcars by QGRY....some of those cars simply had new calls put on, other had new calls as well as panels stamped, other got a complete overhaul. It goes in stages with any company because the cost of re-painting a fleet of cars in extremely high, and at the same time, the company has to maintain as many of their cars in circulation as possible in order to keep the revenue coming in. It's gonna take years for UP to finish re-painting all the old reefers they have in their fleet, and a lot of them are being scrapped as the new UP Chilled Express cars are phased it. Like any company, the RRs are trying to maintain a good public image, with reliable and clean cars available to transport anyone's goods.

    As far as reefers go, be warned, they will continue to shrink in numbers as the global market continues to expand. Inter-modal is the fastest growing divison of rail transportation, mostly because it ties in perfectly with the now ruling trucking industry. CN recently acquired a whole pile of new reefers, but they aren't the ones we like to see. It's all high-end container reefers which is where the tendencies are these days because anything that can be taking directly from a train and dropped on a flatbed 18-wheeler is more cost effective than a boxcar, simply because it bypasses the whole unloading process....it comes from the ship, right onto the inter-modal, then gets dumped off directly onto a waiting truck and it's gone....faster, cleaner and cheaper.
     
  10. Cracked Ass

    Cracked Ass 12oz Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    7,898

    Cracked Ass - Replied Oct 13, 2002

    Re: dude! cracked ass...

    I don't know this one - perhaps Ese can fill us in. MP and WP (Missouri Pacific and Western Pacific) were smaller railroads that got merged with or bought by UP, so I would expect those marks to be replaced with updated UP marks, not the other way around. The deprescription thing happening with Golden Wests can't apply here either, because UP was obviously not paying themselves to put UPFE marks on cars to save money.
    Bottom line info for practical heads: Paint these freshpaints, avoid the numbers, and shit ought to run. Also, all of this repaint/restamp shit is all "paper" transactions, there's no change in car ownership - so the routes these cars run should not change at all.
     
    Cracked Ass - Rank: 12oz Veteran Member - Messages:
    7,898
    - Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
  11. TrustEvil

    TrustEvil Guest

    TrustEvil - Replied Oct 14, 2002

    ....the red repaints are marked MP because despite the fact that they are indeed all technically UP cars since the aforementioned merger, the specific cars continue to run along the old MP, WP, SP routes that they travelled prior to being bought up by UP. CN does the same thing with Wisconsin Central and Illinois Central....everything else gets stamped CNA.
     
  12. krowteN

    krowteN Guest

    krowteN - Replied Oct 14, 2002

    all i know is all those old porn, mek, awr etc. etc. pieces that were on those ssw (cotton belt) and sp (sothern pacific) box cars from the early 1990s dissapeared. i was under the impression that they became gvsr/vcy. and judging by cracked first post this may be true.
    i really wish they hadnt have done that. there wes a lot of good wc graff on those sp and ssw boxs.
    what ever happened to the emax-im assuming they suffered a similar fate. i remember them being here by the hundreds. one day i go to sunnyside and theres nothing there but hoppers.
     
  13. Cracked Ass

    Cracked Ass 12oz Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    7,898

    Cracked Ass - Replied Oct 15, 2002

    Well, the Golden West thing happened in '93, so any SP or SSW with the old west coast stuff that did NOT disappear before '93 suffered some other fate.
    I do know those Hydra-Cushion flats (SP and SSW) are in terrible shape and a lot must have simply been scrapped in the last ten years.
     
    Cracked Ass - Rank: 12oz Veteran Member - Messages:
    7,898
    - Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
  14. killtoy

    killtoy Guest

    killtoy - Replied Oct 15, 2002

    you're right about those Hydra-Cushion flats

    i haven't seen one of those fuckers for like 5 years. there used to be a grip of em around at all the yards. they were always real rusted. i seen one sitting on the side of the highway when i was driving through texas a few months ago. just some toys on it though. lotta dope pieces must have died on those...
     
  15. krowteN

    krowteN Guest

    krowteN - Replied Oct 16, 2002

    Re: you're right about those Hydra-Cushion flats

    exactally-all that old pre-93 wc shit.
    glad i got fliks.