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discussion on the nature of the creator of the heavens and earth

Discussion in 'News' started by Dawood, Aug 7, 2005.

  1. Dawood

    Dawood Elite Member

    Joined: May 8, 2002 Messages: 4,677 Likes Received: 146
    I thought it would be an interesting thread to talk about what people beleived about God. I always meet people and we discuss what God is and what God wants etc. according to their outlook. I find the concept of God truly amazing, and I am curious to know what other people think about God, whether you beleive or not, Explain why you beleive or why you don't beleive.

    Please keep it respectful, keep in mind there are people who strongly beleive in God and negative comments will hinder the bulding process .Again, Lets talk about the nature of God , not politics ,world events or religious side issues. There are plenty of threads to talk about politics ,world events or religious side issues.

    This should be a healthy debate, not a slander session.
     
  2. CACashRefund

    CACashRefund 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Oct 8, 2004 Messages: 14,171 Likes Received: 272
  3. Dawood

    Dawood Elite Member

    Joined: May 8, 2002 Messages: 4,677 Likes Received: 146
    Ok , then step aside and say nothing...
     
  4. CACashRefund

    CACashRefund 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Oct 8, 2004 Messages: 14,171 Likes Received: 272
  5. KING BLING

    KING BLING Guest

    How the do the religious members here feel about the various religious texts being the center of most religions <as in the informing source and the holiest document and tool of God> while being written by man?

    I have heard in my real life conversations that the books are "God breathed" but my retort is always, 'so is everything else.' Ideas on the place of religious texts? Do they play too big a apart? Are they the word of God or the words of man as inspired by God and thus falable as all men are?


    ...
     
  6. Dawood

    Dawood Elite Member

    Joined: May 8, 2002 Messages: 4,677 Likes Received: 146
    The preservation of the scripture of Islam -- the Holy Qur'an -- is unique among world religions. No other religion has a scripture which is both as old and as well-preserved as the one possessed by Muslims today. Even scholars who are hostile to Islam admit that the Qur'an that exists today is exactly the same as the one that existed in the time of the Prophet Muhammad. Even though many people mistakenly assume that the Qu'ran (also spelled Koran) was written by Muhammad, it is actually the literal Word of God. Not only was Muhammad known by his people to be unable to read and write, but the Holy Qur'an clearly and repeatedly exclaims that it is from Almighty God - the Lord of the Universe. Unlike other religions, the followers of Islam have always considered their scripture to be the Word of God in total. The scriptures of other religions are made up of writings that were not considered to be scripture until many years after they were written - the letters of (St.) Paul are a good example of this. Additionally, the Holy Qur'an has always been in the possession of the common believer, and as such was circulated very widely. In this way, Muslims know that their scripture is authentic, unlike other so-called "scriptures" which are still claimed to be scripture even though their authors are unknown. The Qur'an also remained pure and authentic because unlike other scriptures, it was written down and memorized in the lifetime of the prophet that it was revealed to. Also, its wide circulation prevented scholars, clergy and religious councils from deciding what should and should not be part of the scripture -- since it was already in the hands of the people in its complete form. It has always amazed people to find out that the entire Qur'an was not only memorized word-for-word by hundreds of the companions of Prophet Muhammad, but that it has been memorized verbatim by thousands upon thousands of people until this very day in its original language of Arabic. It was only natural for Almighty God to preserve the scripture revealed to Prophet Muhammad, because he was the last Prophet and Final Messenger of God. In short, the Qu'ran is a unique scripture that has come down to us in its original form and unique language. Due to its pristine teachings and unquestionable authenticity, the Qur'an removes the need for man to wonder for himself how to worship and please God, since God Himself has clearly described these things.
     
  7. Dawood

    Dawood Elite Member

    Joined: May 8, 2002 Messages: 4,677 Likes Received: 146
    Here are some of the perfect names and attributes of God so that we can get a better understanding of who IS the creator.

    A large number of the Beautiful Names of Allaah are repeated manifold in the Qur`aan as demanded by the occasion and it is necessary to explain their meanings in a succinct way. So we say:

    (The Lord): This name has been repeatedly mentioned in many verses.



    the Lord is the One Who nurtures and sustains all of His servants through regulating the affairs and granting all types of favours and blessings. More specifically He is the One Who nurtures and sustains his sincere friends by correcting and purifying their hearts, souls and manners. This is why their supplications are frequently made with this Noble Name because they seek this specific nurturing.

    "And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they had earned then surely He would have hastened on their punishment. But they have their appointed time beyond which they will find no escape." (18:58)



    Allaah: He is the One and Only Deity, the One Who is Worshipped and the One Who deserves to be worshipped by the whole of His creation due to the Perfect Godly Attributes that He is described with.

    "Allaah! There is none worthy of worship but He, the Living, the Sustaining. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He Knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world and in the Hereafter. They will not encompass anything of His Knowledge except that which He Wills. His Footstool extends over the heavens and the earth and he feels no fatigue in guarding them. He is the Most High, the Most Great." (2:255)

    (The King), (The Master and Owner) (the One to Whom belongs the dominion): He is described with the Attribute of The Master and Owner. These are Attributes of Grandeur, Majesty, Omnipotence and Regulation of the affairs of creation. The One Who directs all of the affairs to do with creation, command and recompense. To Him belongs the whole of Creation, all of it is subservient, owned and in continuous need of Him.

    "Then High above all be Allaah, the True King. And be not in haste with the Qur'aan before its revelation is completed and say: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge." (29:114)

    "Say: O Allaah! Owner of the dominion, You give the kingdom to whom You will and You take the kingdom from whom You will. You endue with honour whom You will and You humiliate whom You will. In your Hand is the good. Indeed You are Able to do all things." (3:26)



    (The One): He is the One Who is singled out in all aspects of Perfection such that nothing else shares with Him in these. It is obligatory upon the servants to single Him out alone in belief, saying and action by acknowledging His unrestricted perfection, His uniqueness and singling Him out Alone for all types of worship.
     
  8. casekonly

    casekonly Veteran Member

    Joined: Aug 6, 2002 Messages: 8,264 Likes Received: 5
    "god is a concept by which we measure our pain" -john lennon


    to me, god is all that we see and hear. anything and everything is a piece of god. being closer to who we are is being closer to 'it'.

    i don't see god as a vengeful deity with it's finger extended at man. i don't see god as anything to be afraid of. god just is.
     
  9. Do you really want to start a free-flowing discussion about this, or are you looking for a stage to paste down Qur'an quotes? It's not gonna be a healthy discussion if you choose the latter as your basis for argumentation.
     
  10. Krakatau

    Krakatau Member

    Joined: May 5, 2005 Messages: 549 Likes Received: 0
    This would go much more smoothly for Daiwoo without the Koran quoting. No one reads that shit, and it simply makes your contributions skippable. If we are to have a respectable discussion about the nature of God, we should leave religion out of it. I think it is pretty clear that religion has fucked it up at nearly every given opportunity. By looking at the similarities found in multiple cultures regarding a 'god' or less clearly defined force/spirit/_____, I think we might be able to generate an interesting discussion.

    What about the expanse of God? Planet/ solar system bound, or completely universal on some interstellar shit?
     
  11. Dawood

    Dawood Elite Member

    Joined: May 8, 2002 Messages: 4,677 Likes Received: 146
    Actually, KING BLING asked about the authenticity of scriptures and I gave him an explanation about the Qurans authenticity, and note: not once did I quote the Quran.
    Just because I mentioned the quran does not mean I quoted the quran.

    Krakatau, I don't think religion messed anything up, I think people messed up religion. I don't think that God would place us here with no foundation at all, no criteria or guidance. What kind of a creator would create something and leave no manual or guidance to follow to run smoother? That would make God unjust. To just create us and leave us to ourselves.Not even a cqr dealer would manufacture a car without a consice manual. My personal beleif is that All religions have one source. All religions came from the same place, except that people continue to screw them up. Now that doesnt mean that there is no correct path to follow , just that it takes time and study to come to it.
    Anyway, I can leave out the Quran quotes if you like, (even though I did'nt even quote the quran at all in here)
     
  12. Dawood

    Dawood Elite Member

    Joined: May 8, 2002 Messages: 4,677 Likes Received: 146
    I have spent a LOT of time contemplating and studying the nature of God and In my humble opinion there is a flaw in that "God is everything theory" I used to beleive that too, But then look at a peice of doo-doo floating and a toilet and say to yourself "is this God'?
    God , the creator is faaaaaaaar removed from All imperfections in my view. He is The most high. The one who is in need of nothing.

    That Idea that God is everywhere and everything came from greek Philosophy and the orientalists which spilled over into hinduism and Buddhism and recently became popular with these new wave religions that basically lift responsibility off of man from being moral and responsible for his actions because they beleive that when you die you are reincarnated...and you can just "try again"

    Of course We can keep discussing this...I can talk about this for years.
     
  13. What's so imperfect about a piece of doo-doo? It is a perfectly normal byproduct of nature that can and does help new life grow. You may look at a turd in disgust because you are conditioned to do so (and consider it "waste"), but plants and insects hold it in high regard as something essential for their existence, and for nature to maintain its course. Defining what constitutes a "flaw" or an "imperfection" is not a simple matter.

    Your third post on this thread, the one that preceeded mine and casek's, seems to be quoting scriptures. I might be mistaken, but those numbers after phrases in quotation marks definitely threw me off.
     
  14. Dawood

    Dawood Elite Member

    Joined: May 8, 2002 Messages: 4,677 Likes Received: 146
    Oh yeah, That post....ha ha, I take that back...I did quote scripture.
     
  15. Krakatau

    Krakatau Member

    Joined: May 5, 2005 Messages: 549 Likes Received: 0
    That whole post looks like a bunch of koran quoting to me, but like I said, "skippable". So if it isn't, I apologize. Your random capitalization is annoying as well, since you seem to be making concessions right now.

    I don't think that your 'floating shit' arguement makes much sense. Perhaps if you consider that the shit can be converted via the 'circle of life' into a slightly healthier and productive poppy field=> better heroin=> human euphoria, you might view the value of feces differently. Maybe God's removal "from All imperfections" means that the shit is perfect, and our innate imperfection as humans simply bars us from seeing it?

    As far as the religion issue, I think that you are viewing religion as a product of god, while I view it as a product of man. So this may just be a semantics arguement. I can't imagine religion existing in the absence of man, in some raw, perfect form. We birthed religion and RITUAL, it wasn't sent to us. As far as the owner's manual analogy..... you get an 'F'. The kind of creator who would not include a manual would be the kind of creator whose nature exists outside the realm of human conception. Which I think fits the general concensus regarding the 'nature of god'. And who are you to judge whether or not god is just based on the authenticity and existence of scripture?
     
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