Bishop John Spong

i saw this guy on tv the other night and found his views amazingly refreshing.

check it out:

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John Shelby Spong is the former Episcopal Bishop of Newark, NJ. Now retired, he keeps active in promoting the idea that the church must change to reflect reality. He has called for a New Reformation.

He has identified 12 theses[1][2] which he feels the modern Christian church should accept and adapt to. These are:

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.

9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.

10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

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discuss.

Originally posted by casekonly@Apr 15 2005, 01:22 AM

i saw this guy on tv the other night and found his views amazingly refreshing.

 

check it out:

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

 

John Shelby Spong is the former Episcopal Bishop of Newark, NJ. Now retired, he keeps active in promoting the idea that the church must change to reflect reality. He has called for a New Reformation.

 

He has identified 12 theses[1][2] which he feels the modern Christian church should accept and adapt to. These are:

 

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

 

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

 

3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

 

4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

 

5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

 

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

 

7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

 

8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.

 

9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.

 

10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

 

11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

 

12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

 

 

________________________________________________________

 

discuss.

Quoted post

hmm..quoting me and then not replying...i'd assume you fucked up, but ya never know.

that pretty much deletes everything that christianity is composed of, why carry on

It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

he seems to be suggesting something here, i wish this was elaborated on

I too would like to know the logic behind these bold presumptions. While I can appreciate a more rationalists view of the scripture, I don't like all the magick being taken out.

I have witnessed miracles and seen ghosts. A hardlined scientist would say that is scientifically impossible, well of course it's impossible! It's supposed to be SUPER-natural.

Personally, I think they should teach various interpretations of the Bible, alongside the bible, and let the people decide for themselves.

Originally posted by casekonly@Apr 15 2005, 01:22 AM

11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

Quoted post

By FAR the most important.

Good post, give link please.

Originally posted by ARCEL@Apr 15 2005, 04:36 AM

that pretty much deletes everything that christianity is composed of, why carry on

 

It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

 

he seems to be suggesting something here, i wish this was elaborated on

Quoted post

i think what he is saying is that christ was resurrected before he died in that he was spiritually resurrected, not phsyically. it, like many other things was confused and taken literally by those who do not realize that the bible is full of metaphors and analogies.

bobthebuilder: here's on link to many.

http://www.geocities.com/reuther_2000/spong.html

contains many links to interviews and papers written by bishopspong

Ha,ha,ha,ha, He's a decoy. A patsy "antichrist" for the braindead christian sheep to focus on so they don't eventually come to the realization that the dickhead they were told to vote for on November 2nd is the real deal. :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

and were all supposed to be ruled under a book..

Originally posted by MaKeItHaPpEn@Apr 16 2005, 07:26 AM

and were all supposed to be ruled under a book..

Quoted post

apparently the hard edged christian fundamentalists would have you believe so. i think the book is a good guide, filled with alot of entertaining sociopolitical facts from a time that has passed. it's supposed to be a learning experience.

if you look at jesus' life, he was a good man. he was trying to keep the romans from fucking up judaism by bringing governernment and religion into the same house. jesus knew this, and his mission was to keep them seperate and let people know that it wasn't right and they didn't have to bow down before any human leader no matter what the leader threatened people with.

the other teachings were more of brotherly love and understanding. he didn't want people to die in wars or fight over material things.

he never claimed to be the son of god, either. he said that we are all the sons and daughters of god.

i was talking to a friend the other day, trying to explain that exact concept by saying that god is a mirror. when you smash it into pieces, you can still see your reflection in every tiny piece of the mirror, but it is still a mirror. it may be broken into many pieces, but you're still looking at a whole reflection.

Originally posted by SF1@Apr 16 2005, 02:18 AM

Ha,ha,ha,ha, He's a decoy. A patsy "antichrist" for the braindead christian sheep to focus on so they don't eventually come to the realization that the dickhead they were told to vote for on November 2nd is the real deal. :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Quoted post

haha, i think it's you who was misdirected. reading into 'revelations' what you want to hear. that whole book was about things that happened a long time ago. you need to get your facts straight.

bush isn't the antichrist, just another asshole politician who thinks he is 'doing the right thing' and making some money on the side doing it. it's been done time and time again.

lesson: don't believe everything you read, and if you think it might be worth something, research it.

OK buddy, you obviously didn't reallize I was half joking about that Antichrist shit. I was making fun.

But you're way off about Bush. He definately knows he's a rotten bastard. That's why he flat out lies about his motivations and has his people fake his elections. True most politicians do the same to one degree or another but most level-headed people would agree that Bush and his people are the all-time worse in US history.

Originally posted by SF1@Apr 17 2005, 01:31 PM

OK buddy, you obviously didn't reallize I was half joking about that Antichrist shit. I was making fun.

But you're way off about Bush. He definately knows he's a rotten bastard. That's why he flat out lies about his motivations and has his people fake his elections. True most politicians do the same to one degree or another but most level-headed people would agree that Bush and his people are the all-time worse in US history.

Quoted post

well, what about kennedy taking us to vietnam under the guise of strategic planning when we were in there fighting the whole time? do you know how long we were over there fighting before we offically called it war and the u.s. citizens actually knew we were fighting?

what about before that in wwII when we blew upa japanese sub in pearl harbor and claimed that they struck first?

there are countless other examples i could point out, but i'll leave it be for now. my point is that george bush is just another u.s. president doing what they all do. lie, cheat, and steal. he's no worse than the rest of them we've had.

as for people agreeing with you that bush is the worst, it's only because this is a media generation we're living in. there's more coverage of the goings on and more access to information via the internet. those people need to get their heads out of their asses and look at history. america is a crappy nation with crappy white men running it. they do things for their own interests. always have, always will. there are still things none of us will ever know about our country and it's leaders.

this country has never been 'for the people by the people' it just transferred rule from the english to the americans.

Wow you are either very young or incredibely stupid. How you gonna compare Kenedy to Bush??? :nope: Kenedy did alot of good for this country and so far all Bush has done is flush everything he touches down the toilet.

As for sinking a Japanese sub in Pearl Harber during World war 2...We were at war with them you dipshit!

The rightwing fake news is the one telling you lies, get it straight.

Fox news and it's like should be banned.

Bush is not just another president doing the same shit you moron...he is the absolute most fucked up piece of shit to ever disgrace the Whitehouse, and fuck our whole country!

I can't beleive how fucking stupid todays youth are it makes me sick !

If those changes were implemented you know what Christianity would start to resemble?

I'm reading a book on Islam now and one of the key points is

that 'God' (Allah) is an infinate and because of that our minds

can't possibly begin to understand the divine because of our

limited (finite) perspective. They believe in science and that

new scientific discovery is just another manifestation of the devine

slowly becoming more familiar to our limited view of things.

but yeah... I'm not qualified to really speak on it.

Originally posted by SF1@Apr 17 2005, 04:27 PM

Wow you are either very young or incredibely stupid. How you gonna compare Kenedy to Bush??? :nope: Kenedy did alot of good for this country and so far all Bush has done is flush everything he touches down the toilet.

 

As for sinking a Japanese sub in Pearl Harber during World war 2...We were at war with them you dipshit!

The rightwing fake news is the one telling you lies, get it straight.

Fox news and it's like should be banned.

 

Bush is not just another president doing the same shit you moron...he is the absolute most fucked up piece of shit to ever disgrace the Whitehouse, and fuck our whole country!

 

I can't beleive how fucking stupid todays youth are it makes me sick !

Quoted post

haha i'm 28. you need to research more into what our presidents past and president were and are. kennedy was just as bad as the rest of the presidents we've had. just as bad as bush is. just as bad as clinton, just as bad as reagan. you're an idiot.

of course we were at war with japan, but that sub blowing up was the beginning of the end. that was the deciding factor in using the nuclear bombs. you are indeed an idiot.

you see, had it come out that we were the ones that attacked them and that is why they attacked pearl harbor full force, america might not have stood for us blowing the shit out fo hiroshima and nagasaki. therefore, our country lied to us and said that it was them who attacked us first,

you sir, are an idiot.

as for right wing news, i only watch it to piss me off. left wing news is just as full of shit and propaganda as the right is. if you didn't know that, then you need to die right now.

key: seems that you hit the nail on the head. but islam isn't the only religion that believes that science and divinity go hand in hand. judaism and mathematics, etc, etc. seems like bishop spong is just taking a more logical approach to christianity than most do.

SF1: just in case you still think bush is still far worse, i'd like you to check this out....

http://www.downwinders.org/launch.htm

and then let's get back on topic.

Wow, Wow WWWWOOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're 28 and you are that stupid????????

:huh2: :huh2: :huh2: :huh2: :umm: :umm: :umm: :umm:

Clinton was one of THE GREATEST PRESIDENTS THIS COUNTRY EVER EXPERIENCED!!!!

Not to mention he left office with something to the efect of a trillion dollar surplus that took a year or two for Bush to complely obliterate into the unheard of deficet now!?!? I mean shit, we aint even gonna have Social Security by the time we're old enough to need it!

Kenedy was also one of the greatest presidents this nation ever experienced. (at least everybody with more than 3 brain cells knows this to be a fact!)

And as for this--->"you see, had it come out that we were the ones that attacked them and that is why they attacked pearl harbor full force, america might not have stood for us blowing the shit out fo hiroshima and nagasaki. therefore, our country lied to us and said that it was them who attacked us first, "--->

This is the most retarded flaming sack of bullshit I have ever heard in my life!!!!!!!! not to mention full of holes 4 years deep!(and keep in mind I have only heard it from you, not to mention that your very statement controdicts the hell out of itself). You sir, are beyond any definition (past or present) of the word IDIOT! Japan attacked us because we put sanctions on them for fucking with China and other countries. Not because we sank one of their subs (that acording to you was lurking in our harbor) somewhere in the 4 year time frame between Pearl Harbor and and the bombs being dropped on Japan in 1945.

No I won't "die right now". I will keep telling IDIOT DOUCHBAG CORNBALLS like you to get your retarded head out of your ass!

Are there realy people as dumb as you or are you trying to be sarcastic??? :huh2: :huh2: :huh2: :huh2:

PS... Your right wing owned Fox News, MSNBC, And others FOR A FACT spew nothing but Republican dictated propoganda whereas these so called "liberal" stations FOR A FACT report shit straight up how it is.

Yet your right wing propagandists try and convince us that the actual real news is "left wing propaganda", just to trick brain dead bafoons into believing their fake news.

I almost can't beleive there are people like yourself that are so pathetically stupid that you can't see through the horse-shit!

Beleive me when I say that I pray for you stupid fucks to eventually overcome the blatant, bold-faced, clearer than daylight, lies that are somehow corrupting your thought process and stop helping to thoroughly fuck our country! Grow some damn common sense!!!!!!!

thing is, i'm not a republican.

i know japan didn't go to war with us because we sank their sub dick face, read it again. i said that the reason pearl harbor was fuckedup was because we sank one of their subs. it was a recon mission they were on. you're just so full of yourself and full of shit that you look past anything important. so, fuck you, fuck your mother, and fuck your stupid theories. maybe when you get older your head will come out of your ass on its own.

clinton was just another president who did what the rest do. reagan was a lier, bush sr was a lier, clinton was a lier, george jr is a lier. they say one thing and do somethign completely different once they get ellected to office.

doesn't matter if bush stole the election, a ton of others have done the same fucking thing.

unfortunately, since this is the internet, i won't write down my true feelings for fear of being arrested.

i know exactly what is going on and i also am intelligent enough to know that it no longer matters what president we have, the same things will go on regardless of what puppet figurehead we think is governeing the u.s.

haha, you said i'm right wing owned...hahhaha. that was the best laugh i've had in months.

anyhow, i'm not pissed, but i love egging you on.

take care fucker

You are both right, and you are both wrong.

*Casek: I wouldn't speak in absolutes, like they are ALL just as bad. Sure they did alot of bad shit. But better or worse is relative and largely subjective.

*SF1: Why all the hostility?

Let's get this back on track fellas, if you want to make a Bush Vs. Kennedy thread feel free to do so.

10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

please please please stop praying before college football games.

'God' doesn't care about the trivial pursuits of the priviledged class.

Dont pray to postpone your own death. If it's your time to go, then accept it.

Dont even think about praying for money, lotto winnings or a mercedes benz.

Please stop giving God shout-outs at the source awards. On that same note.....

please stop rapping about your hollow pursuit of Babylon and then signing off by saying 'peace'.

'Enlightement is knowing that only you can save yourself' - Peter Urban

Good point Key.

I rarely pray for myself. Usually I'm praying for other people.

If I do pray for myself, it's not for my will, but for God's will.

There is alot of hypocricy out there.

The only real prayer I say for myself is that I can return to the

path that is chosed for me and that I can do my best to live

the way I was intended to do. There's really not much more

that you can honestly ask. Certainly praying for finacial rewards

or to 'win' some event, be it sports or a work promotion, seems

to cheapen the entire religious experience in my eyes.

i really enjoy prodding sf1 and making his/her blood boil. it amuses me to no end.

hopefully sf1 is just as amused. if not, eh.

key: i think bishop spong made an excellent point there with the praying and whatnot being mostly for selfish reasons. 'god, just give me my leg back so i can play in the finals for blahblah highschool soccer game and win' petty.

he also makes a very good point about how much todays christianity tries to play guilt trip games on people for being people.

let me make this clear: god is not up in the sky pointing his domineeering finger down on us and saying 'bad humans! baaaaad humans! i shall punish you with aids and cancer and such!' sounds all simpson-esque, eh? or even worse, python -esque.

come to think of it, the god in monty python movies was always really fucking funny.

I got one word for ya'll:

DINOSAURS!

Originally posted by kaesthebluntedwonder@Apr 20 2005, 11:14 PM

I got one word for ya'll:

 

DINOSAURS!

Quoted post

i think that if you look at god the right way, evolution is possible along with everything else that alot of conservative christians might disagree with.

jesus was a really inspired man.

Right, I don't think he would put dinosaur fossils down here to simply fuck with our heads.

you don't know how awesome that would be. anyhow, the universe has a sense of humor....example: spontaneous erections and elephantitis.