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Bishop John Spong

Discussion in 'News' started by casekonly, Apr 15, 2005.

  1. casekonly

    casekonly Veteran Member

    Joined: Aug 6, 2002 Messages: 8,264 Likes Received: 5
    i saw this guy on tv the other night and found his views amazingly refreshing.

    check it out:


    John Shelby Spong is the former Episcopal Bishop of Newark, NJ. Now retired, he keeps active in promoting the idea that the church must change to reflect reality. He has called for a New Reformation.

    He has identified 12 theses[1][2] which he feels the modern Christian church should accept and adapt to. These are:

    1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

    2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

    3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

    4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

    5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

    6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

    7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

    8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.

    9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.

    10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

    11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

    12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.


  2. Dionysus

    Dionysus New Jack

    Joined: Nov 30, 2004 Messages: 1 Likes Received: 0
  3. casekonly

    casekonly Veteran Member

    Joined: Aug 6, 2002 Messages: 8,264 Likes Received: 5
    hmm..quoting me and then not replying...i'd assume you fucked up, but ya never know.
  4. Dick Quickwood

    Dick Quickwood 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Aug 25, 2002 Messages: 14,783 Likes Received: 14
    that pretty much deletes everything that christianity is composed of, why carry on

    It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.

    he seems to be suggesting something here, i wish this was elaborated on
  5. villain

    villain Veteran Member

    Joined: Jul 12, 2002 Messages: 5,190 Likes Received: 2
    I too would like to know the logic behind these bold presumptions. While I can appreciate a more rationalists view of the scripture, I don't like all the magick being taken out.
    I have witnessed miracles and seen ghosts. A hardlined scientist would say that is scientifically impossible, well of course it's impossible! It's supposed to be SUPER-natural.
    Personally, I think they should teach various interpretations of the Bible, alongside the bible, and let the people decide for themselves.

  6. By FAR the most important.
  7. bobthebuilder

    bobthebuilder Member

    Joined: Nov 15, 2004 Messages: 295 Likes Received: 1
    Good post, give link please.
  8. casekonly

    casekonly Veteran Member

    Joined: Aug 6, 2002 Messages: 8,264 Likes Received: 5

    i think what he is saying is that christ was resurrected before he died in that he was spiritually resurrected, not phsyically. it, like many other things was confused and taken literally by those who do not realize that the bible is full of metaphors and analogies.

    bobthebuilder: here's on link to many.

    contains many links to interviews and papers written by bishopspong
  9. SF1

    SF1 Elite Member

    Joined: Apr 25, 2003 Messages: 4,866 Likes Received: 5
    Ha,ha,ha,ha, He's a decoy. A patsy "antichrist" for the braindead christian sheep to focus on so they don't eventually come to the realization that the dickhead they were told to vote for on November 2nd is the real deal. :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
  10. Neskoner

    Neskoner New Jack

    Joined: Jan 6, 2003 Messages: 0 Likes Received: 1
    and were all supposed to be ruled under a book..
  11. casekonly

    casekonly Veteran Member

    Joined: Aug 6, 2002 Messages: 8,264 Likes Received: 5
    apparently the hard edged christian fundamentalists would have you believe so. i think the book is a good guide, filled with alot of entertaining sociopolitical facts from a time that has passed. it's supposed to be a learning experience.

    if you look at jesus' life, he was a good man. he was trying to keep the romans from fucking up judaism by bringing governernment and religion into the same house. jesus knew this, and his mission was to keep them seperate and let people know that it wasn't right and they didn't have to bow down before any human leader no matter what the leader threatened people with.

    the other teachings were more of brotherly love and understanding. he didn't want people to die in wars or fight over material things.

    he never claimed to be the son of god, either. he said that we are all the sons and daughters of god.

    i was talking to a friend the other day, trying to explain that exact concept by saying that god is a mirror. when you smash it into pieces, you can still see your reflection in every tiny piece of the mirror, but it is still a mirror. it may be broken into many pieces, but you're still looking at a whole reflection.
  12. casekonly

    casekonly Veteran Member

    Joined: Aug 6, 2002 Messages: 8,264 Likes Received: 5
    haha, i think it's you who was misdirected. reading into 'revelations' what you want to hear. that whole book was about things that happened a long time ago. you need to get your facts straight.

    bush isn't the antichrist, just another asshole politician who thinks he is 'doing the right thing' and making some money on the side doing it. it's been done time and time again.

    lesson: don't believe everything you read, and if you think it might be worth something, research it.
  13. SF1

    SF1 Elite Member

    Joined: Apr 25, 2003 Messages: 4,866 Likes Received: 5
    OK buddy, you obviously didn't reallize I was half joking about that Antichrist shit. I was making fun.
    But you're way off about Bush. He definately knows he's a rotten bastard. That's why he flat out lies about his motivations and has his people fake his elections. True most politicians do the same to one degree or another but most level-headed people would agree that Bush and his people are the all-time worse in US history.
  14. casekonly

    casekonly Veteran Member

    Joined: Aug 6, 2002 Messages: 8,264 Likes Received: 5

    well, what about kennedy taking us to vietnam under the guise of strategic planning when we were in there fighting the whole time? do you know how long we were over there fighting before we offically called it war and the u.s. citizens actually knew we were fighting?

    what about before that in wwII when we blew upa japanese sub in pearl harbor and claimed that they struck first?

    there are countless other examples i could point out, but i'll leave it be for now. my point is that george bush is just another u.s. president doing what they all do. lie, cheat, and steal. he's no worse than the rest of them we've had.

    as for people agreeing with you that bush is the worst, it's only because this is a media generation we're living in. there's more coverage of the goings on and more access to information via the internet. those people need to get their heads out of their asses and look at history. america is a crappy nation with crappy white men running it. they do things for their own interests. always have, always will. there are still things none of us will ever know about our country and it's leaders.

    this country has never been 'for the people by the people' it just transferred rule from the english to the americans.
  15. SF1

    SF1 Elite Member

    Joined: Apr 25, 2003 Messages: 4,866 Likes Received: 5
    Wow you are either very young or incredibely stupid. How you gonna compare Kenedy to Bush??? :nope: Kenedy did alot of good for this country and so far all Bush has done is flush everything he touches down the toilet.

    As for sinking a Japanese sub in Pearl Harber during World war 2...We were at war with them you dipshit!
    The rightwing fake news is the one telling you lies, get it straight.
    Fox news and it's like should be banned.

    Bush is not just another president doing the same shit you moron...he is the absolute most fucked up piece of shit to ever disgrace the Whitehouse, and fuck our whole country!

    I can't beleive how fucking stupid todays youth are it makes me sick !