art and the artists

I was talking to a friend last night, and we got into a number of good solid discussions that have been on my mind since we spoke, and so I have decided to see what kind of response I would get from the 12oz.er's since you are my "peers" for the most part, and in a similar field as myself.

Last night it was decided that ultimately one can not be anything more than what they are. not in the sense that one can not change, but simply the idea that an individual is simply that. (I use the word simply not to belittle what an individual is, but to simplify the "problem") Knowing that one can only be themselves, is it just to say that one should accept themselves and the fact that there may be others that are simply incompatible? (I know, open-ended.. but it has a flow just stay with me)

also, a person is not static. This accepted, people should be ready to have ever evolving relationships and accept there will be no "constant" in life, as everything is constantly in flux. Within THIS context, should there be an active pursuit in a ultimate goal, or should an individual realize that there will be a number of progressive or changing goals that will be strived for? For example, I used to want to be a pro skater. Now I am 23 and my life goals are different, I still would like this goal, but the desire is far less than when I was 12. Should this be accepted in all facets of life (especially love and friendships?)

then the "final" question, KNOWING that you are ever in flux, and can only be what you are, how does art and the individual relate? If I draw straight lines because my "self" tells me to do this, is it good or bad art? this pushes art into a more viewer oriented medium, because the work is no longer "controlled" by the artist beyond their own capabilities, but given to the viewer to see if it is "successful," not in the sense that it completes the piece's intended goal, but that the work is "accepted" by other individuals, who again, are constantly in flux.

I ask this because I make crazy art. I think I'll post some pics later, and I've struggled with my art versus "contemporary" art, and this discussion pushed me to believe that I make what I make because it comes from my hands, and will never be anything else. It challenges me to believe in myself, and have faith in my creating, and know that it is ultimately the most individual work possible, since it is from me, a ever changing and evolving individual, and the work captures a moment in my existence.

ideas? comments?

i kinda agree,

but i thinkpeople only have talent to a certain extent,

everyone has goals and aspirations, but it doesnt mean they will be gettin there ever.

they may try, and be ok at it, but thats about it.

for example, your skating.

ive had those dreams as well,.

but the way i skate, i could never compare to how good the pros are.

and even among the "pros" there are some pretty shitty pros out there, that dont even come close to the "stars"...

people are put in their place,

people try new things because they want to see what niche they fall in where they are considered a "great"...and will continue to try new things until they become so comfortable with it, it becomes second nature.

another example.

snowboarder vs the skateboarder.

im sure there are plenty of people out there who do both, but found that they can do one sport much better than the other...which is why they might be pro in one...and nothing in the other...

same thing with artists.

they will try new "styles" out to find their niche, and to find people who recognize their style.

people will copy each other over and over, but with slight changes

and that slight change might be "it" for them.

im sure the artist is perfectly happy with some of their old art as well as their new, but an audience can help secure their style as become what they will make bank on...

then there are those artists who dont care wat their audience thinks, or maybe just their circle of friends or whatever....

main point being, that whether youre an artist, dj, rapper, rock star, skater....people will always try new shit just to see their potentials.

thats why marriage and careers are sometimes are a hard thing to decide on...

it becomes static.

but thats what hobbies are for.

[kinda of a ramble...]sorry.

but that's my point, should we accept that things are truly never static? I heard a lecture yesterday that said that youth should get married at a very young age, this will force you to "grow up" in a sense and thus realize yourself as an "adult" you would then focus ON being an adult and the "quarter life crisis" that is such a buzz would simply be seen as life, thus accepting that there is a constant flux in EVERYTHING. In this lecture they also stated that "breaking up" merely prepares an individual for divorce, and so one should look more to the growing WITHIN the relationship without the "failures."

this can hold true in art. one should SEE themselves as the artist from the start, realize they ARE great because they ARE themselves, and then realize the art within them to it's full potential rather than try many things that COULD be avenues for greatness and end up feeling lost at 50 when you gave up to early or lacked focus.

people can say "you can do anything, you can be anything" forever, but at SOME point you have to decide. people for thousands of years were making MAJOR life decisions at 11 and 12 years old, look at barmitzfas..

I just wonder if the flux is really anything anyone should worry about, and should we just accept that it exists and persist....

I'm crazy.

it's different in fields where you have to be "selected," and money always becomes an issue. Sure you can't just BE a PRO skater, but you can BE a skater, regardless you're public acceptance for style or ability. and that is where i'm at.. can i just accept i AM artist? or do i really need the community around me and things of that nature to validate me?

(edit) and this applies to all facets of life.. should we keep chasing the ever evolving dream, or should we grab a hold of things we have and let our change shape it's self? so in a relationship, should we simply be put with someone else and accept them, and grow within the relationship, or should we run the race of searching for an ever changing "ideal" and never truly be satisfied as we are always seeking more or different items?

no matter how new your car is, time will come that you will want another. society accepts this as norm, but at what point do you accept what you have? or should you?

do what you want. dont hold back. especially w/ the art shit. if what your doing comes from you, who cares what others think, unless your counting on a pay check from them for what your doing....(then i guess you would have to prove yourself and find your spot).

I guess my question isn't as clear or concise as it is in my head.

if I can break it down...

why are people so in love with finding the goal, when the goal is ever-changing?

I want this girl, 2 months ago I couldn't see past my ex girlfriend, but now I am totally enthralled by this new girl.

I wanted a s10 for sooo long, I got one, now it's ok, but I really want a Mercedes truck.

I wanted to be a musician, I start to get a record deal and then I wanted to make a different kind of music (and drive thru records sucks my ass.)

why is it SOO instilled in my being that once I achieve my "goal" THAT will finally make me happy, but the fact is that I will NEVER be fully satisfied as I always want something else?

dam, that sucks, dont know what to tell you other than whatever makes you happy , do it.... unless its killing others..???

there are those of us who seek out to have more...

and there are those who are content with what they have,.

as artists...we are open to constant stimulation...

always seeking new ways of entertainment and pleasure.

acquiring skills, and meeting new challenges.

almost every skater out there or car enthusiasts has a background in other sports or hobbies...

they are never just cut and dry people...

they usually have in depth personalities...

even if you did become a pro skater,

i bet you would be trying ten times harder to make your car dope, or be a ill snowboarder.

you've already passed the hurdle of becoming a pro skater, now you need something else to conquer.

same with artists.

once they become the shit in their eyes and in the public eyes, its time to change up the game with something else that will be just as ill.

my own self.

i change cars almost every year,

i build one up exactly the way i want it,

show it for the season, get some magazine shots and call it a day.

sell it that fall...

do the same thing with the next car.

ive done this with the past 3 cars ive owned int he past 3 years.

There goes David Brent.......... I must remember to thank him.

the only constant is change and it is necessary for growth.

there has been some speculation that america's add society is partially to blame for that achieving but feeling incomplacent attitude.

i hate emo art fags that think they're better than everyone. im not talking about the talented.. im talking about the fans that attend thier artshows...cooler than you, just for being there types

"vent"

i read only one or two posts, but here are my thoughts.

+it's only art if someone else sees it and likes it. be it through genuine appreciation or hipster peer pressure. or if your dumabss friend says cool.

+the goal is ever changing. think about it, what else do you have to do except meet and then reset your goals?

"oh dude, i totally got her number!"

cool, well, your next goal is to take the next step.

i'm just trying to say that if you aren't moving forward your're being left behind.

Giving Tree, have you ever read any of Aristotle's book called Nicomachean Ethics? You should, heres a link to it for free http://classics.mit.edu//Aristotle/nicomachaen.1.i.html

Aristotle's theory of eudamonia reminds me of this thing you keep saying about constantly moving. He believes that one should keep moving towards happiness than staying static in their short lived "happiness." Check it out, its very good and pertains to what youre talking about.

eefyoo, so its kinda like that tree in the woods theory(if a tree falls in the woods...)...

if you make a piece of 'art', and no one likes it except for you....

is it really art?

I think art is in the eye of the creator. If you create something, put your emotion and heart into it, it makes you feel good, then it is art, even if people shun it completely (my humble opinion).

It has to do with skill as well though.

Originally posted by gatita@Jan 21 2005, 09:44 AM

I think art is in the eye of the creator. If you create something, put your emotion and heart into it, it makes you feel good, then it is art, even if people shun it completely (my humble opinion).

Quoted post

I'm gonna back gatita up on this one.

If I was to take out some lumber and tools and make a sub par chair...would that be considered furniture?

put down the bag of magic mushrooms...

I didn't throughly read all the other posts but heres my .02 anyhow

I dont think the goal is always changing. At least not for me.

I have a static goal: Happiness. Unfortunaly the means by which to attain this are are always in flux.

KNOWING that you are ever in flux, and can only be what you are, how does art and the individual relate? If I draw straight lines because my "self" tells me to do this, is it good or bad art? this pushes art into a more viewer oriented medium, because the work is no longer "controlled" by the artist beyond their own capabilities, but given to the viewer to see if it is "successful," not in the sense that it completes the piece's intended goal, but that the work is "accepted" by other individuals, who again, are constantly in flux.

I dont see the relevance in asking wether art is good or bad if you are talking about individual expression. In that case ther eis no good or bad, art as expression just is. On the other hand I believe all art is created to be shared so I do think it requires an audience to complete a work of art....btu thats getting into my own warped conception of "art". Tolstoy wrote some interesting things about the artist/audience relationship.

I am not sure what you are saying about art but I do think that if you just throw your hands up and say eh....everything is in flux and I am only ever as good as I am now then why try to be anything that I am not (huh?). well to me thats a cop out. The beauty in achievement isn't in the final product. It is in the process of the attempt.

Its human nature to create goals for ourelves. Sure as soon as we attain one we create another...but would you really want it any other way?

Im deep as a puddle.

Originally posted by gatita+Jan 21 2005, 08:44 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gatita - Jan 21 2005, 08:44 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>eefyoo, so its kinda like that tree in the woods theory(if a tree falls in the woods...)...

 

if you make a piece of 'art', and no one likes it except for you....

is it really art?

Quoted post

[/b]

well, even though i was completely hammered when i posted my first comment, the fact that i made coherent posts is kick ass. i think you summed it up nicely though. i was thinking of art in the gallery/ public sense of it. if you just make it for yourself it it just a little project you have going on. or at least that's the way i think of it.

<!--QuoteBegin-SteveAustin@Jan 21 2005, 11:57 AM

If I was to take out some lumber and tools and make a sub par chair...would that be considered furniture?

well yeah. i see your point.

maybe i'm holding 'art' in too high regard. i always think of art as something that i couldn't do. when i do a little doodle or make a guitar out of a cardboard box and elastic bands at work (i played smoke on the water on it), i won't ever consider it art. but patrick jilberts stuff is the greatest ever and i definately consider it art.

i really don't know where i stand on this

All I have to say is NEVER live in a static world. If you do, you will never accomplish anything again.

Static=shit, always moving=eudamonia/always trying to reach happiness, which by the way, pure/perfect happiness doesnt exist which forces you to continue trying to reach happiness/eudamonia.

Ive said a million times, read Aristotle. He is, officially, the jump off.

gatita knows.

that's been my thing for a while. just keep it moving. not even related to art, just have that goal and head straight toward it. roadblock? find a way around it and keep going. not feeling your goal? change it.

simple yet hard to do.

No doubt goals are always changing. You know, like 'give 'em an inch, they'll want a mile'.

The new Metal Gear Solid game talks a lot about the ever changing enemy that a *soldier faces. That a soldier remains constant in that he/she will fight for his country, but it is the politicians who decide who the enemy is. And the enemy is always changing. Friends become enemies in the time it takes to raise one's hand and say "aye", and vice versa.

Who's to say what the geopolitics will be like twenty years from now? My guess is as good as yours, and I'd bet the bank that we'd all be shocked at the outcome.

In one scene in this game, Snake claims that he does whatever his country needs/wants him to do, but that isn't true. It is the elected leader who tells him what to do.

Which leads me to this quote I came up with regarding flag burners while drunk at a party in front of a video camera: the flag does not represent what your country is (what it's doing, what it stands for, etc), but what you want your country to be. So it's up to the individual to decide, hence the fact that democracy is the way to go. There are far better ways to make a change than to simply burn a flag, which is a bigtime sin in my book.

Sorry to have strayed off topic. This philosophy stuff is not my thing. My friend's dad gave me a book published in '67 called "Communism, Fascism, and Democracy", and it was a big collection of writings by all sorts of prominent political figures, from Dialectic Utopianism all the way to as far right as you can get. That book is one of the best that I own, no doubt. I tried and tried to get through it, but I just couldn't. Not with ease, anyway. But political philosophy is awesome, nonetheless. I will pick it up another day. :chicken:

Originally posted by Giving Tree@Jan 20 2005, 11:45 AM

I guess my question isn't as clear or concise as it is in my head.

 

if I can break it down...

 

why are people so in love with finding the goal, when the goal is ever-changing?

 

I want this girl, 2 months ago I couldn't see past my ex girlfriend, but now I am totally enthralled by this new girl.

 

I wanted a s10 for sooo long, I got one, now it's ok, but I really want a Mercedes truck.

 

I wanted to be a musician, I start to get a record deal and then I wanted to make a different kind of music (and drive thru records sucks my ass.)

 

 

why is it SOO instilled in my being that once I achieve my "goal" THAT will finally make me happy, but the fact is that I will NEVER be fully satisfied as I always want something else?

Quoted post

hey i been around this forum for a quite awhile but i didnt post nuthin. but i decide to reply to urs. hope ya dont mind.

"why are people so in love with finding the goal, when the goal is ever-changing?" <- i mean.. if ya serious about the stuffs ya do, and stick to your goal, it aint gonna change. maybe when ya reach your goal, ya might get better at it. and ya gotta understand. nobody is ever satisfy in this world. if ya become a pro, maybe ya wana try breakin a record. if ya got 1million bucks, ya hope to have 2,3 10milions.. ya got a hot chick, ya want a better hotter one. but 1thing fo sure, ya hate ur parents for scoldin and naggin at ya and ya want to have some1 elses parents which is better. but im sure not matter wat, ya still love and will stay wit ur parents... nuthin can change that. but wat im tryin to say is, do be happy and satisfy about wat ya have. theres many much more unfortunate people out there. so yea.. i hope im not off the point or anythin. im a little tired right now. sorry...

peace

I think... wat do i think... i think the first statement was true... i think there just some things we can do some things we cant do... some things we like some things we hate, BUT we can learn to like them for example... You may hate the taste of beer at a young age but as you get older you end up liking dont ask me why but you just do. But you can learn to like anything i use to hate punk music now i love it its just how things work. Moving on to the girl guy relationships i think some personallitys just work it doesnst matter how incredibley hot somone is if you dont have conpatible personalitys itl never work. same if you both really like eachother some things just dont work.

an amazing book yo umust read is "art and artist" by otto rank

-- check http://www.ottorank.com

--here is a good link http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/rank.html

--here is another link with some quotes of the book i found off google http://www.thedoors.com/banquet/rank.htm

here are a couple more quotes

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, for there are plenty of others.

-- Diary 1904

Art is life's dream interpretation...[Kunst ist Lebenstraumdeutung]

-- Diary Dec 1904

but it is this quote to which i find most of us here can find some truth in---

This very essence of a man, his soul, which the artist puts into his work and which is represented by it, is found again in the work by the enjoyer, just as the believer finds his soul in religion or in God, with whom he feels himself to be one. It is on this identity of the spiritual, which underlies the concept of collective religion, and not on a psychological identification with the artist, that the pleasurable effect of the work of art ultimately depends, and the effect is, in this sense, one of deliverance....But both [artist and enjoyer], in the simultaneous dissolution of their individuality in a greater whole, enjoy, as a high pleasure, the personal enrichment of that individuality through this feeling of oneness. They have yielded up their mortal ego for a moment, fearlessly and even joyfully, to receive it back in the next, the richer for this universal feeling.

--Art and Artist, 1932, p. 109-110.

influence, or who your influenced by can be a source of change. the enjoyer is influenced by the work....and so on.

I immediately picked up the philosophical "feeling" of your post. And big up to Gat for dropping Aristotle - I'll have to check it out for myself.

Pretty profound, Giving.

I feel as I am on the same wavelength as you, in terms of self. Unfortunately, I won't be much help, as my thoughts are scattered. I think in short bursts, and with some luck, I can manage to salvage my previous thoughts and build from them. I just haven't taken the time for myself to stop, breathe, think, collect, write, discuss. But whatever, I am crazy.

Most constructive post, ever.