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a great article on Jessica Lynch..debunks the BBC article..

Discussion in 'Channel Zero' started by mapo returns, May 23, 2003.

  1. mapo returns

    mapo returns Member

    Joined: May 4, 2003 Messages: 687 Likes Received: 0
    Saturday, May 17, 2003

    Yesterday, the Command Post
    <http://www.command-post.org/archives/007072.html> tipped me off about a story at the BBC regarding the rescue of American soldier Jessica Lynch in Iraq. It’s important that you first read the original BBC article right
    here <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/corr...ent/3028585.stm>.

    The BBC story may seem at first to be a simple bit of myth de-bunking.
    However I have enormous doubts about its accuracy, due to something said within.

    The BBC alleges that the rescue event was pretty much staged for the
    cameras, and that the American troops fired blank ammunition during the rescue in order to make things seem more dramatic for the benefit of the cameras.

    "It was like a Hollywood film." Said interviewed witness, Dr Anmar Uday, who worked at the hospital. "They cried 'go, go, go', with guns and blanks without bullets, blanks and the sound of explosions. They made a show for the American attack on the hospital - action movies like Sylvester Stallone or Jackie Chan." The BBC has accepted this witness as reliable without cross examining his story.

    Now, a few firearms facts for the uninitiated.

    American troops use three main infantry weapons.

    First, there is the M16A2, a modern derivative of the old Vietnam era M16.

    Secondly, there is the M4 carbine, a shortened version of the M16, often
    used by special forces troops.

    Third, there is the Minimi Light Machine Gun.

    None of these weapons can be converted from firing blanks to live, or back again, in a speedy manner.

    Blank ammunition, when fired in these three weapons, is not powerful enough to force the weapons mechanism through its full cycle of operations. Because there is no live projectile, the build up of gas in the barrel is much less. When the weapon fires, there is no way that the mechanism will re-cock and chamber a fresh round.

    Fire a blank round, and the weapon will stop firing after the first round
    is expended.

    This would clearly be a daft situation when training with blank ammunition, so for training situations, a blank firing attachment (BFA) is used. The BFA consists of a cumbersome mechanical device bolted on to the end of the barrel. This restricts the amount of gas escaping, giving the weapon mechanism enough power to re-cock and re-chamber.

    The BFA is awkward to get into place and even more difficult to remove.
    Frequently, it requires the use of pliers or some similar tool to affect
    its removal. After pro-longed firing with blank ammunition, the BFA is so
    hot that it must be left to cool before it can be removed.

    This has a safety advantage in infantry training. It makes it much harder to confuse live ammunition with blank.

    Now, back to the BBC report.

    According to their witness, blanks where fired during the assault for
    dramatic effect.

    If this where so, the American troops would be put in an awkward situation. Suppose, in the midst of this staged event, some Iraqi troops or Fedayeen irregulars appeared? How would they defend themselves? Clearly, converting the weapons from blank to live, in the heat of a battle, would be disastrous. It would take, at best, 2-3 minutes to remove a BFA, then vital more seconds in order to replace the belt or magazine of blank ammunition with live. In the dark, it would be very easy to get the blank and live rounds mixed up, too.

    It is very hard to imagine how any Special Forces soldiers would agree to enter a combat zone with their weapons primed for blank ammunition.

    Things are looking bad for the BBC’s story, but it gets worse. Much worse.

    The BFA is large and brightly coloured. It’s a safety feature; a visible
    way of proving in training that no one is pointing live ammunition at you
    by mistake.

    I don’t have the video footage of the rescue to hand, but I do recall
    seeing it. I didn’t see any weapons sporting BFAs.

    Furthermore, fired blank shell casings look very different to live ones.
    Blank shell casings have a crimped end to them that is still clearly
    visible after the round is fired and discarded. So if the BBC wants to
    prove its story, it can visit the scene of the rescue and produce some
    discarded blank shell casings. Unless, it wants us to believe that the
    American troops picked them all up. In the dark. Behind enemy lines. In a war zone.

    So how do blank rounds work in the movies? Well, the weapons used are not real. They are specially produced replicas, often based on the mechanism of a real weapon, with the barrel partially sealed. They cannot fire live ammunition under any circumstances whatsoever. This is how film makers create realistic scenes of automatic firing without attaching a BFA to the end of the weapon.

    Clearly, no one will be carrying that sort of a 'weapon' into a combat

    So what does this mean to overall importance of the BBC’s story?

    Well, the BBC's witnesses cannot be trusted.

    And the BBC has made a huge error that a couple of quick phone calls could have put right.

    The BBC may be guilty of seeing what it wants to see in another area too.

    Early on in the story they make the astonishing statement that "Witnesses told us that the special forces knew that the Iraqi military had fled a day before they swooped on the hospital."

    According to the BBC, the witnesses somehow magically know what American Special Forces knew or thought. How they managed this effort of mental telepathy is not explained.



    Staging Versus Ignorance
    Well, my blogfather <http://www.windsofchange.net/> had to keep pushing, and bringing up other points in regards the story that claimed that the rescue of Pvt. Lynch had been staged strictly for morale. As usual, he does bring up some good points that merit fuller discussion.

    Where we both agree is on how you send people into a situation like that. You don't tempt fate, and you don't trust that all the bad guys have gone. Even if you suspect that they have, you still don't take chances.

    That means that you send in the people who can do the job, the special
    forces. You have them armed with live ammo, not blanks as it is reported that the Baghdad Broadcasting Company is claiming/is going to claim soon. You find a locked door, you don't knock, but blow it per training. You secure, sort, and cope.

    Which leads to the clueless reporter hypothesis. I have written on this
    before, on his blog, about the undeclared war between The Media and the military. In many journalistic circles, it is quite fashionable and proper to be willfully ignorant of the military. To go to great lengths to avoid learning anything about them and how they operate. They are the murderous, almost sub-human barbarians, after all, who CHOSE to be soldiers.

    That attitude is one reason the embeds were a brilliant stroke. It is
    doubtful that you truly got too many of that school out with the real
    front-line troops. Yet, all the embeds – even Ted Koppel – got a much
    better understanding of the troops, how they operate, and what is and is
    not done.

    Which brings us back to the particular reporter in question. Was he just
    ignorant of how such things are done? Could he be one of those moronic
    fools who thinks that you could just slip in a small team like modern
    ninjas, so that they could check out everything and then just spirit her

    I find that hard to believe, though I do have to acknowledge it as a
    possibility. After all, there are those out there who believe that in the
    midst of a gun battle that someone with a snub-nose revolver (or comparable auto) can get pinpoint accuracy and shoot so as to disable a
    perpetrator/enemy without killing them or doing lasting damage to their
    body. There are those who think the special forces really are ninjas who
    can sneak in, go across ceilings, and move undetected throughout buildings and such even though they are dressed different, talk different, armed, and more. There are also those who believe in the tooth fairy too.

    The story, and the way it was put together, just doesn't add up for me. Not on many levels, and in particular not on the ignorance angle. There appears to have been too much time spent in setting up points, in not-so-subtle innuendo and implication, for this to have been the complete result of ignorance. If this was indeed written in the aftermath of the liberation of the town, it would also imply a certain familiarity with military operations. Even if not, almost everyone on the planet has had some exposure to rescue operations through news, broadcast media, or even popular books.

    No, this one comes across as nothing more than a deliberate smear campaign. An attempt to start something that it now appears others may be willing to pick up. The BBC report seems to quote one or two of the same sources, and I would love to know if this guy helped or advised on the BBC program.

    This really, to me, is adding up to the big lie. Tell something in the
    worst way possible, imply or infer that really bad things happened and/or that it was a sham on one or more levels, and trust the doubt to grow. The absence of checks and balances is a clue, but it is just one of many.

    No, I am afraid I don't see much innocent in this. Ignorance may well be
    part of it, but I don't think it is simple ignorance of the military and
    how things are done.
  2. JimmieWalker

    JimmieWalker Senior Member

    Joined: Mar 29, 2003 Messages: 1,345 Likes Received: 0
    Nice to see some oppisition to the story but I still believe many thing that the bbc reported. Thank You. It is this type of shit that pisses me off about the U.S. gov.
  3. mapo returns

    mapo returns Member

    Joined: May 4, 2003 Messages: 687 Likes Received: 0
    Well thats your choice. Im just curious, what parts do you believe, and why do you believe them?
  4. JimmieWalker

    JimmieWalker Senior Member

    Joined: Mar 29, 2003 Messages: 1,345 Likes Received: 0
    I believe that the Media/Government only release enough information to to the public to let there imaginations run wild. For example a lady at my work wouldent stop talking about how jessica lynch got raped and was tortured. Obviosly not true but the media/Government sure hope that that was true inorder to better villify a enemy that we are at war against. Any thing to make the enemy look evil WILL get reported or broadcast so that americans can feel better about the whole situation, be it true or not. I just don't have any trust i guess.
  5. JimmieWalker

    JimmieWalker Senior Member

    Joined: Mar 29, 2003 Messages: 1,345 Likes Received: 0
    Another thing that neither article mentioned was about the 11 body’s found in the hospital. If you run with information that was provided by the media you might think that they were taken there and killed, and body’s left on the floor where they died. Do we know if the soldiers were even killed at the hospital? Now I don't know what really happened but did any one think that when you are in a war situation like that you have to dispose of body some where and the morgue at a hospital would happen to be the right place to do so. All i am saying is that the body’s ,yes were found in the hospital and the U.S. had to be recovered somewhere and I think if the body were in the morgue the Iraqis did the right thing in that instance.

    Please believe that I am not not not an Iraqi sympathizer I just don't believe shit that the government tells me.
  6. suburbian bum

    suburbian bum 12oz Loyalist

    Joined: Jan 30, 2001 Messages: 14,673 Likes Received: 3
    I still beleive BBC. That article you posted mapo wasnt too convincing.
  7. JimmieWalker

    JimmieWalker Senior Member

    Joined: Mar 29, 2003 Messages: 1,345 Likes Received: 0
    You are a smart person.
  8. BROWNer

    BROWNer Guest

    the bbc has/will definitely benefit from such a story, but would
    they be THAT irresponsible considering the play this would get for
    just a few measly extra bucks?
    hard to say.
    regardless of both sides, i find it pretty amusing
    that lynch has absolutely no recollection of any of it. the first
    thing that pops into my head is that the DoD has gagged her.
    if they did, why? all of a sudden this great operation
    to save her swoops down, and she has amnesia all of a sudden.
    without amnesia she'd be on every show in america.
    who knows..this is the type of thing the US has gotten
    itself into. it basically boils down to nobody buys their shit anymore becuz the double
    standards, lies, coercion, and complete disregard for world
    opinion and law is so regular, blatant and out in the open
    that they are now in this hole with a massive credibility deficit.
    i personally do not think it is that far fetched
    that the DoD would stage this. the white house and pentagon know
    that war coverage is at least half the battle. the whole thing with
    embedded journalists and shit, this is stuff they have been working
    on for years and years, they didn't just think it up a month or so
    before this war. the white house and pentagon have operational
    strategies, and these days a massive part of that is psychological
    operations. wars are won in the minds of people, not on the battlefield.
    to me this kinda stuff is entirely plausible from a logical standpoint.
  9. crave

    crave Veteran Member

    Joined: Jan 20, 2002 Messages: 6,728 Likes Received: 10
    dont beleive everything you see, read, or hear.

    that operation is classified and will be for sometime. so any reports from news agencies will be filtered. the whole story will come out eventually, just not at the moment.
  10. mapo returns

    mapo returns Member

    Joined: May 4, 2003 Messages: 687 Likes Received: 0
    i dont know who to believe. i know most people on 12oz would much rather believe the BBC article. most people on here seem not to trust the government and would like nothing more than an article like this to prove their case.

    im not saying its impossible, but when I read the BBC article it really struck me as odd that special forces would go ANYWHERE in Iraq only armed with blank ammunition. im not a military expert, but i knew alot of that stuff about the difficulty with modifying an M16 to shoot blanks, and that kind of stuff just doesnt happen.
    imagine if theyd have entered shooting blanks, and there was Iraqi soldiers in there who of course would be shooting live ammo? Theyd kill the special forces, and the Iraqis would show the fraud on Al-Jazeera and the whole world would realize what happened - America would be caught with its pants down.

    im not saying the goverment and media arent shady at times. and i dont think it was some huge daring rescue to get Jessica Lynch..the part about her having amnesia is a definite slap in the face to the intelligence of the American people which i dont like.

    but overall i cant see them storming into a hospital shooting blanks or even shooting at an ambulance because they wanted to stage the scene. just dont see it. only a handful of people truly know.
  11. JimmieWalker

    JimmieWalker Senior Member

    Joined: Mar 29, 2003 Messages: 1,345 Likes Received: 0
    Fack of the matter is, we are all lied to by this government all the time.
  12. ctrl+alt+del

    ctrl+alt+del Guest

    The US Government is the Tom Sawyer of this shit.

    wonk saggin.
  13. BROWNer

    BROWNer Guest

    wait a sec..
    it's extremely likely the hospital would have been under
    surveillance before and leading up to the
    operation, with the building perimeter then secured with
    armed forces..and its most likely they had some type of intelligence to work with,
    either some signals intelligence or some communications intelligence or
    just straight up human sources..
    in either scenario this was probably the gist
    of the operation...you and the bbc both leave the prelude
    to the operation in who-knows-land..in either case, would the
    US military really enter any possibly hostile facility with zero precautions?
    you assume that basically they charged in with blindfolds on..
    the joint was certainly cased.
    i don't know, i think the whole thing about fake weapons and blanks
    is a little hard to swallow, but the rest of it seems entirely
    reasonable. the pro's for this type of thing far outweight the cons.
  14. Æ°

    Æ° Senior Member

    Joined: May 12, 2002 Messages: 1,974 Likes Received: 6
    Illiterate B-actor bozo lookin demon fuck.

    Nancy has a nice tit though.
  15. Poop Man Bob

    Poop Man Bob Dirty Dozen Crew

    Joined: Nov 16, 2000 Messages: 10,259 Likes Received: 18
    A mighty fine query, albeit not mine.

    How often does the US Special Forces conduct raids with a full camera crew in tow?